Learning to Fight - Episode 22

Learning to Fight Podcast — Conversations in Combat Skill

After a year-long hiatus, the Primal MMA Coaching Podcast is back—Rebranded, and refocused as the Learning to Fight Podcast: Conversations in Combat Skill.

Your hosts are:

Adam Singer — Co-owner and head coach at SBG Athens, BJJ black belt, long-time MMA coach, with years of developing novice to elite level fighters. Student of Matt Thornton and SBG's philosophy of 'aliveness'.
Scott Sievewright — Co-Owner at Primal MKE, MMA skills coach and obsessive student of how humans learn to move and fight. 

Together, we dive deep into the art and science of coaching, training, and skill development in combat sports.
 Expect honest conversations about MMA, striking, grappling, practice design, contemporary research, traditional approaches, ecological dynamics, and the messy realities of learning under pressure.

No gurus. No dogma. Just two coaches trying to understand fighting a little better each week.

Same curiosity. New lens.
Learn how to learn.
Find your own style.
Thrive on the mats—and in the cage.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:05

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

We're both working a bit rough today. I think we'll put this one on fucking audio.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

I'm not sure we ever looked like handsome. It's been a long it's been a long week, but it's been a good week. It's all it's always relative. It's all relative, right? How did your uh how did your presentation go?

SPEAKER_00 0:26

You know, I wanna I wanna nerd out a little bit over that today, but not not my presentation itself, but how I managed to squeeze it into five minutes and how I practiced for it. And did I did I memorize it or did I just get so familiar? Did I just build that relationship with that particular text?

SPEAKER_02 0:46

So it's it's very interesting that you mentioned that because I am uh I am balls deep in David Epstein's new book called Inside the Box. No, it's David Epstein, right? I mean it he may also have an island, but I think he uses it for different things. He he uses to write books. And so the well, so you already know him, even if you've never read him before, because he wrote the book called Range, which was about specialization versus not specializing. Um and before that he wrote it.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

What's his background item?

SPEAKER_02 1:20

What sports um and in specific? Yes, well, so he he played uh he started playing football when he was a kid and then had a horrific injury, and then he started running cross-country, and that actually took him to college scholarship. Um, and then he became a science writer. So he does, he does have a pretty high-level sports background, even if it's you know not a sport that we necessarily focus on. Um and and the first book he wrote was called The Sports Gene, which was about the effect of genetics on on athletics, which is you know, that's what drew me in. I was an instant fan because that's a favorite topic of mine. But um the new book is about constraints. And he's been doing a lot of podcasts, and he was just talking about, you know, how changing the constraints on how he's written has changed the output of his books. And so changing the the constraints on your speech, whether it's five minutes or ten minutes, whether it's emergent or recorded or different things like that, will change your presentation.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Explain more. What do you mean by changing the constraints on your well?

SPEAKER_02 2:26

So let's say, oh hey, there comes Rory. One sec. Hey Roy. Can you guys hear me? Yeah, we don't see you though. Do you oh wait, maybe. Oh, I see you now. Hey, Rob. Hi. I'm not sure if it's gonna work.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

I hear perfectly. You hear us? Yeah, can't sit back to my control on my lap. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

I've bought one of these new reflex things. Oh, yeah, you're playing with it right now?

SPEAKER_01 2:45

I can't quite see.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

No, I've actually I bought it for my my my daughter. What is it? When she it's just for the big garage when she comes in. The gauge her such as a crashed car. Yeah, yeah. So little constraint, if you will. But when she comes in the fridge door, she comes really, really close to it, and I kind of get the fridge open. I'm saying, Is this your way of telling me to stop drinking beer? Maybe maybe it's fat shaming.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

I would hit I would hit that that door one or two times. I don't park in a garage. My wife does. There we go. Oh, very nice. Effective. That's an effective constraint. Yeah. So Ro Roy, Roy, you'll just figure out what we're talking about. So if I gave you 10 minutes to give that presentation versus five minutes to give that presentation, would the quality of the presentation go up or down? And and that's you know, that's the question. Like if you if you have five minutes, do you chop out half the bullshit or do you not have enough time to really explain yourself? And so the constraints on your presentation, the constraints on a book, the cons, you know, he's just he's talking about how they affect what we would consider self-organization, but how they affect everything. And to me, it's the it's almost an interesting sequel in some ways to Matt Ridley's book on the evolution of everything. Because we talk about fundamentals and the rules of sports, and we know if if you change the rules of the sport just a little bit, you can change everything about the way that sports self-organizes.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And I give the, you know, I was a discourages in the word, but I'm like, this is the culmination of my semester, right? For this, because I'm doing it part-time, so yeah, I only have one unit. And I'm like, I really only got a cram all this in five minutes. So it felt more like a uh a wrapping test to wrap myself through it. Um but I get it, if it made it 10 minutes, I would have waffled for 10 minutes, and if it made it two hours, I would have waffled for two hours. So I guess it just forced us into this small space. But um yeah, that's that's that's that's all I have to say on it. No, no, sorry, excuse me. My point was uh I built I built my slides and then um made my narration as I went, and then I would just kind of try and talk into my phone or and get the get the timing and all that down. I must have practiced that and tripped over my dick a hundred times just trying to get it down right, squeeze it in this five minutes. I already have kind of trouble articulating sometimes and a hum and a haw and a and I put filler words, so I had to really cut all that out. And I'm just wondering, am I memorizing this or am I just getting that that's my question? Or am I just the text, the information of the text itself and that pattern, am I just building a relationship, a perception-action relationship with that? And I know I'm overthinking it, boys, but that's what we do.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Oh well, let me ask you a question. If it were someone else's text, then we'd agree that you were memorizing it, right? So if if if your presentation was to uh to one of Shakespeare's sonnets, would you be memorized you'd be memorizing his words, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Correct, but but it's more of a performance is maybe the same thing, though. That's what I'm saying. That's my curiosity, which is is why I'm even thinking about stuff like this. We're navel gazing again already. But um are we are we memorizing it or are we just building a relationship that particular uh visual part? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Well what do you think? What would you how do you feel like that?

SPEAKER_00 6:15

I'm I'm leaning towards a second one, but it makes me sound like I'm fucking crazy.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

So if you're if I'm trying to, we're talking about the slideshow that we watched the other day, the presentation you gave for your uh program that you're in.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Correct. So I had this, I had to get my whole framework, my skills test, present it and squeeze that into five minutes. I mean, did so with a hard cutoff.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Did you have it on did you have what you were gonna say on a piece of paper in front of you?

SPEAKER_00 6:44

I had to. Normally I would kind of just riff it, but I had to because I only had five minutes, I was getting a cutoff, and I needed to make sure I had like a 15-second buffer. And if I fucked up even a couple of times and I almost got through it, I think I had the right amount of caffeine and nicotine and night's sleep and I and I got through it. Um, but I I'm I'm just curious as I was writing it because I'm like a TED talk.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

So you had to condense it down like to like a TED talk.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Yeah, something like that. So I mean you you surely But and I wait, I didn't I wrote it down. I was reading a script. And and and and that, sorry, now I'm I'm joking, I've had too much caffeine this morning. Uh that's kind of what we were talking about, the difference between prescription and organic. I don't think I'm I can read something and sound natural. It's like uncanny. Some people are good at it, right? Some people can do it. Um, watch some of these, you know, on TV anchors and everything. It's it's it just seems flawless. And they're obviously reading from some kind of script or teleprompter, but it sounds natural. I don't think many people can do that. I think it's a it's a really tough skill that takes a lot of time and practice. Certainly, I can't do it. If I'm reading from a script, it's very, very apartment.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Well, there are there's also like when I do something like that, I don't script it out. I just have uh some keywords, and then ever then it emerges. So I it's not to me, I can't memorize uh something like that, a presentation. I can't read a script. I have to do it emergently, but I have some cues, if you will. Right. And so to me, it does uh a speech like that would I don't know how I don't know how what memory plays, what role memory plays, but I would definitely say that it's it's a self-organizing thing when I do it. You know, I give an eight-hour basically course on coaching, um, and my slides are just a couple cues. And then so it it emerges, and every time I give it, it's different because the room is different, the people are different, I'm looking at different faces, I'm different. And so I wonder if you if you try to do it again without the script, what you know, without any cues, without the thing in front of you, what would it look like?

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Well, I I it was tough to take that chance because it was uh it was there was no redoes. So I had to go that route. But it was apparent when we were down in Texas here, Adam. You're much better at than me. I'm fucking talking like I got hot chips in my mouth.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

I think a time constraint is also a different constraint when you're when you're pressed for time. That is not the same as you're just being told, hey, let's try and keep this between five and ten, uh, and then and then speaking and just having uh a counter next to you that's that's just letting you know you're getting you're getting a little too long here, you're running out of time there. But it's another, like I said, if it if you're told like you gotta put it in within five minutes, then you probably have to, because you want to hit your points, you have all these slides, you have to speak about them. You I don't think you're given much choice. Uh Adam has eight hours.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

That's a lot of hours. Right. So so the question would be if if we gave you 10 minutes, we said, okay, do it again, 10 minutes, would it just be twice as much bullshit? Oh, definitely. And so the the constraint of five minutes is is valuable in that sense because it stopped you from adding a lot of bullshit. You know, it made you put it on a napkin.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Yeah. The one the one time I got a little bit derailed, just a little bit, because I actually I was really struggling with it. My kids were like, I must have sound like a madman. I practiced it two, three hundred times the day before because it was just uh I won off, right? And uh the only time I got kind of derailed is is after four minutes, he went, you have one minute left. I was like, ah fuck. He discouraged me if you do well. He just kind of gave me a little push as I was in my flow. But anyway, I got it done.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

I get it. I have to do a presentation for the conference we're going to in June. Um, it's my choice how I want to do it, but I would like to do a floating head also for the presentation. And for me, the best chance of me doing it well would be to not practice it at all. I will do my slides. I will have Rory and you look at the slides. If the slides are good, then I will just do a one take through and that'll probably be as good as I'll ever get it. How long do you have? They don't, I don't have a hard time constraint necessarily, but I I think that you know, 15, 20 minutes will be plenty, if not too much.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

I think if I remember last time there were there were some kind of on the spot that just give you two minutes to riff and give you a topic. So there's there's a bit of that going on too, I think.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Yeah, so it's it sounds like there are four parts. Um, one of the parts was recording a practice. And so talk about this. As soon as a camera goes on me, I fall apart. I start fucking talking too much. I sound like an idiot, I start saying things and forgetting things because I don't plan my practice. And so as soon as the camera was on me, it was like a tremendous amount of pressure. And I think the guy said it was a good practice, but I'm sure I sounded like a moron. So I handed that in already. Now I have a slide presentation that I have to hand in before. And then there are two sections that will just be off the cuff, like you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

That's that spotlight effect, right? When the camera comes out.

SPEAKER_02 11:44

Yeah. And if they start filming me for the my sessions, then I'll just fall apart.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Here, is it Jamayev uh stricken fight still on?

SPEAKER_02 11:52

I mean, did he hurt him with that stupid kick yesterday?

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Well, I I wrote I I saw I was just pulled up my phone when I was leaving the gym last night and it said he blew his ACL and then I couldn't find that again. I thought that was just bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

That had to be bullshit. I heard someone said he said something popped, but I haven't seen that or anything like that. And I think even if he even if he got hurt, he would still probably fight. That would be such I mean so stupid. It is so stupid. It's so stupid that Shemayov doesn't understand that this is a fucking game.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

From a skills perspective, I'm a big Sean Strickland. I I know you are. You shouldn't be. From a skills perspective, from the You're you're a fan because the way he trains. Well, there's that, but excuse me. Okay, fair enough. I think he's got careful what I'm saying here, because I think he's they're all great fighters, right? I I I I never want to shit on fighters, it's not my intention. I think he's got a limited skill set, but I think he's very, very good at that. And I think so. If he had a coach that was nudging him into new spaces, I think he would get a lot more out of the different environments and all the live work that he gets. But I think what he is good at, I mean, he's he's he's just got a beautiful uh relationship with with range and taking the sting off the punches.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

So you say limited skill set, right? But in MMA, he's limited. Period. Because he can throw straight punches with with very little power. He throws a front kick, right? He doesn't wrestle, he doesn't clinch, he doesn't do anything on or off the cage, he doesn't do anything on or off the ground. So to me, limited is is not even enough. Well, it's been enough to get him to where he is, Adam. No, I mean limited's not even enough to to define him. Oh you know, and yes, we never see video of all these travels of him actually wrestling or grappling these people or doing cage work. A little video came out this week of him doing some clinchwork with another low uh lower level UFC guy, and it didn't look good at all.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

I wonder how much of that is is is is uh on purpose. That's that's not the word I was looking for, but that's the only word coming in my head. But how much of what do you mean? You're not seeing it because he doesn't want you to see it. He's playing a part because he does play the heel. I mean, the words and things that come out of his mouth are absurd. And I don't think he's playing. So so then if he's not playing, then but then he's a that's his character, that is who he is. Are you not is is is his social media being cultivated in such a way that you don't get to see that because he doesn't want you to, and that can either be because it's not good or because I'm not sure it's quite being at all.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

So he puts up all this. The reason Scotty, the reason Scotty fell in like with him to begin with is because he seems to do most of his training by sparring different people. And he looks good when he's doing when he's on his feet for sure. But it all that video is kickboxing. None of it is shoot boxing, none of it is clinched cage ground. No, it's definitely not.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

He's gonna have to have a lot of running away to not be put on a cage and be taken down and wrestle fucks for is it a 25-minute fight? Make your predictions then. Scott, 25-minute fight, right? Yeah, make your predictions. Wrestle fuck.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Yeah, I think she might have uh runs through them, and and I'm not saying that's the result I want. Um, but I think they already know. I think when guys have trained with each other, they all know there's a there's a there's a pick in order in the gym and it's often unspoken about. And yes, fights can go either way, but I think they know.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

It's funny you say that, and I won't I'm not gonna name names, but we used to have a room full of smaller guys who were all very high level. There was a period where we had a room full of guys under 170, and everyone in that room fought in something big if they wanted to. And there was a little bit of like a big brother thing, I think, that occurs where guys sort of the pecking order is not completely based on skill, but it's some of it is based on where they just sort of feel they are, if that makes sense. And and if they didn't know each other and we put them in the cage to fight, the results may be different than when they train together in the room. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

No, I I I don't disagree. I'm not making any definitive statement here. I just think John. Oh no, I know Yeah, yeah. I I think I think they probably know. I mean, I I know I know exact I know for the most part exactly where I stand in in the room.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

In my room, I think you know.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Right. But we are we are older and experienced enough that we know where we stand skill-wise. Right. There's no one in the room who has it over me or you or Rory because there's a mental component to it. Like, well, maybe I have that with Rory, but there's no one, no one in the room is big brothering us, except for for me and Rory. Um, but I wonder how much so like is does Chamayev have have that over Strickland as well? Like, has Chamayev shown Strickland how strong he is, how tough he is, that he's just a different breed, and Strickland has has no chance.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

I would imagine, given what I see, and again, I don't know these guys, but the kind of characters and the dispositions, I think they've probably had quite a few ego rounds.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

I don't know how much training have they done together.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

I I I I I was getting confused because I thought this was a rematch, but it no, it was Pereira that um Strickland fought, and then they ended up training together. Is that correct? A little bit, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

But there was some footage of there was some footage of Chemayev and Strickland doing some kickboxing training.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

It looked like no one landed a thing and they Chamayev just moving around and Strickland was just moving, and like like so what that doesn't that doesn't give me any extra information. Now, other people in that room, they might know how the rest of those minutes went, but that minute of of clip didn't tell me anything. I would I'm gonna go with Chamaev only because I don't see, and I haven't seen, so I can only go with what we've seen, and that's to say we haven't seen anything to show me what Strickland's cage work is like, what his wrestling defense is gonna look like. And has anyone stopped Chemayev uh from taking him down and and and wrestle fucking them?

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Burns was Burns the closest, and Burns Burns in the clenching ground is a totally different thing than Strickland. I mean, as far as we know, because we haven't seen anything.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

No, but I mean Burns Burns' credentials as a grappler are sure a world-class level. Yes. So I've got a I mean Shamaev won fifth won 25 minutes with with the Drickists, right? Yeah, and that was a terrible fight. He laid on top of him 25 minutes though, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:31

Yeah. I mean, that was pure wrestle fuck.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Now, the only thing I would I would consider is if Strickland just had in a tremendous gas tank that he did really well with a pin verse bounce type game, stayed in the middle and was able to turn and hand fight, put his back, and just wore Chemayev out on the on the on the the takedown aspects of it. But I mean, even Dricus couldn't get off his back.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

He'll he'll be we watch we watch fights differently because I I I I appreciated that performance. Whose performance against Dricas. Whose performance did you appreciate? Shamayev's. I did not. But what I'm saying, I can expect it felt like a you know uh a cat playing with a ball of young.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Yes, but that's not I want to see the cat kill the mouse.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

No, I know you'd want to see a cat kill the mouse.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm talking about expressions of skill, which are Okay, but I don't see if if we are agreeing that the and we have that the fundamentals are the rules of the sport and the win conditions of the sport are first and foremost damage. That's how you that's how you win on the the scorecards, and damage that leads to a stoppage. Chemayev never tried to damage or stop. And so playing with a ball of of yarn is not what the part of the rules set, it's not part of the wing conditions. It's just so to me, skillful would have been trying to finish, trying to get into a better position, advanced position, ground impound, submit, knock him out. He didn't do any of that, elbow him, cut him, whatever it is. He didn't do any of that.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Why do you not think he did it? Why do you do you not think he did that?

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Well, because it's a fight and and he did not want to let uh Dricus stand up, but Drickus couldn't stand up because Tremaya wasn't doing anything, and it created this uh fight that I think was was less than impressive for both of them.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

A fight to not lose as opposed to a fight to win. You had 25 minutes on top of someone, there sh it should not have it, they should have been 10, 8 rounds. Like if you can completely dominate another human being from the top position, then you should be hitting and elbowing and hitting, controlling, hitting, controlling. Like if that level is so far is much higher, then that's how that should have gone. And yeah, I mean, he was on top and he controlled, but I mean, show show that you are capable of of doing damage.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

I think I really appreciate the control side. I I don't I don't watch grappling because I don't particularly enjoy it. Doesn't you know doesn't move any of my pants, but when I watch MMA grappling, I really uh appreciate that because in MMA grappling, the whole point is the controlling in in general grappling, you can you can have a you can have a bottom game and you can very much be in the be in the fight and that could be your style in your game and whatnot. In MMA, that's the it's you're not meant to be on the bottom. So the fact that you're you're you're you're forced to be on the bottom for 25 minutes, I I just I can appreciate that because it's it's it's where I want to take my room, like top control, and domination. So I I also said I I I enjoy the control part, even if he's not finishing the fight. So the same reason I like watching that.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

I'm not judging whether he finished the fight or not. My judgment is based on him not it might have been it might as well have been a Brazilian jujitsu or wrestling tournament because he was just using one aspect of MMA, which is the control. But it's control to finish and the fact. That he never tried to, you know, a couple times. He did a little bit of Kamora, he did a little, but he has all these tools, he has punches, he has elbows, he can knee the body, he can submit, he can advance position. He never did any of those. And so, and I get it, like let's say he did that in the first round, and DDP gets up. And so now he changes his strategy to just hold him down. Okay, that's that's fine, but he never even and so to me it was just it was uh too cautious. And as a fan or even a coach, I don't want my fighters, I don't want my fighters to have 10, nine rounds and take the risk every time they stand up and have a new exchange on their feet. There's a risk that they're they're gonna get finished. So I want my fighters to take people down and when you pin, you win. Because the longer the fight goes, the more risk there is of everything happening. And fighting not to lose or fighting not to lose position to me is just not it's not the right way to approach it.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

That's all very fair. You know, you speak about Shakur Stevenson and he's he's no he's a purist like him. Because he's he's no knocking anyone out, and he's but his skill set is picking apart and staying safe and in and out and whatnot, right? But you can make a similar argument, he's not going for the kill. Why is he giving why is he giving his opponents the opportunity to go round after round after round and maybe knock him out? So I think it's sure.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

I I think it's fair, but Shakur Stevens also knows the limitations of his own power. I mean, Shakur Stevens, you rarely even see him land something out wobbles another person. He's just not a power puncher. Mayweather had to do that in all the late fights of his career, the last 20 fights of his career, that's what he did.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Well, Mayweather's another one. You know, people there's a lot of maybe people who are not, I wouldn't consider myself a boxing purist by any means, but you know, I enjoy it, I understand the sport. I I I love watching Mayweather. I think he's just it's just a tremendous expression of skill. But a lot of the people said towards the end of his career and stuff, his fights were kind of boring, right? They were cautious, they were they were clever, they were intelligent. And I can appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

There was a constra's constraint on the system with Mayweather, and that was his hands. He had bad, he had bad hands. Kind of hands, right? He his hands were always sore, they were always damaged. He he ever to hit hand pads, he put on a pro rap. You know, and so you look at his early fights in his career, before his hands really started bothering him, he had some power. But later in his career, I think he made the assessment to not risk his hands.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

So maybe maybe we give Jemaia the benefit of the doubt and say if he can do the same to Strickland, take him down, control him, and then actually put some effort into trying to finish him, whether that's because emotionally he wants, you know, to murder him, uh, but he actually puts forth an effort to finish the fight as opposed to just lay on him for 25 minutes, then we come back and have this discussion afterwards and say, okay, the fact that he showed that he could do this and then did it, maybe we give him a pass. He was fighting for the belt to to win that. Maybe there was an idea, you know, maybe in his head he's like, I I don't want to risk losing this opportunity to become the middleweight champ. So he did play it safe. In his head, he knows he played it safe. He might not say that, and that's fine, but now he's got a chance to defend and show us what it means to be champ, that it's not just about playing it safe, it is about putting forth this effort to finish, finish in a dominant stoppage fashion. And we say, okay, well, this guy's also one of the best in the UFC. Uh challenging was a champ right then in Strickland had the doll for a moment, right? Yep. And now, and now, you know, he showed that he could, as a champ, he could take out a former champ and not just hump in for 25 minutes. All right, I'll branch you that. I'll grant you that. It's tomorrow night, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Tomorrow night. The the under the co main, the other title fight is the really exciting one. That's the really exciting one because Josh Vann, my gym has been watching Josh Van since even before he got in the UFC. By the time he got in the UFC, the guys already knew him because I have a I have a young pro who is also from Burma or Myanmar or whatever we call it now politically. Um, so you know, we've all been turned on to him and been a fan of his for a long time. Um I hate the way that he won for him. I hate the way that he won the title, but I think he can really cement himself. And the Japanese fighter he's fighting is uh very skilled in the places that we don't know if Van is skilled at yet. You know, he's very good uh with his reactive takedowns, he's very good with um jumping on the back. He blew that dude's knee out from standing back control. Um, so that should be a really interesting fight. And I think, you know, the they're they're I love the speed of those guys. I love what they're able to do. Maybe part of my dislike of Strickland is just the the gear he fights in is just very boring to me.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

You mentioned below the knee out there. Um, and there's obviously there's there's stuff we don't do in practice. I would assume most coaches don't do in practice, oblique kicks and whatnot. Uh it does it surprise you or do you think it's do you think there's a quote there's there's some honor or an ethic in it that fighters aren't you you'll be able to speak to this more, Rory. Uh like more intentionally trying to take out their their opponent's front leg, like specifically targeting the front knee. Do you think that's uh what do you think is going on there that we don't see more intentionality around that in fights? And and we do is like the oblique kicks, like really trying to go right through the knee and really damage your front that the front wheel of your opponent. Do you think there's an unspoken, a little bit of an unspoken rule in fighting that we don't do that? I thought it was I thought it was I thought it was illegal.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

For a very long time, I thought directly attacking the front of the knee was illegal. And I'm still not even 100% sure that it's not illegal.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

So but maybe another item is it that's not bleak. I mean, George is a new leg.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Yeah. And I was just studying for my to do my presentation, I was just studying some Connor film, and one of the clips that I picked up when he fought Diaz the first time is he tries to stomp right on Diaz's knee and lands it, lands it pretty well. So maybe you can't directly attack the kneecap, but you can hyperextend their leg.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

And then maybe we maybe it's you don't see it because it is something that is very difficult to train in the room. I mean, we had a we had a guy who came to us and had only spent a couple weeks with us after leaving a different gym, came to train with us and was getting ready for this fight and fought on a car with a bunch of our other guys in in Athens, and the dude, the other guy came out immediately, like a jumping, like kick straight to his knee. Uh, our guy ends up winning a fight and then ends up being out for like nine or 10 months. So with an ASL. So I think maybe because we we don't train it, because again, how do you train that without hurting somebody? That it it might not be top of mind. So you don't see it as much, but it seems that it's just right there. And I mean, as maybe as a fighter, fighters don't want to do that. I don't know. We'd have to ask, like, hey, why aren't you just kicking dudes directly in the knee? I'm not I'm not sure. I haven't I really haven't given any thought to know is that something that I would or wouldn't do. I've been I'm so far removed from fighting. So, you know, in 2009. I mean it brings up some good points.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

Um after Tara, is that his name, the guy fighting van, after he did that back attack from standing, we came into the gym on Tuesday night and I was like, none of you motherfuckers better be trying this. Like, and they knew, I mean, it was a joke, but you know, we've seen some other things. We I've seen there's one, there was one back take from like quad pod that we all saw once where we were all just like how did how did it not result in in injury? And you know, we make this agreement that that we're not going to experiment with certain things on each other. But after practice the other day, a couple of guys were talking about how in competition, they pulled things off that they've never practiced before. And the reason they've never practiced them before is because they don't want to hurt their training partners. But in the competition, they just they didn't have that kind of standard of care. Not that they were trying to hurt someone else, but they didn't care. Like in in our room, one of the wrestling rules is you don't use your body weight to make someone else fall because there's a chance of injury there. There's a good chance of injury. But in a fight, you wouldn't be thinking about that. And so if you haven't trained it, I don't know if it comes out readily, like Rory said, but it it might. And I think, and Scotty, we've talked about this, Rory, we've talked about this. I think there are things that are safer when everyone is going full speed than they are when we have scaled down in the intensity. Because everyone's version of scaled down intensity is not the same. And so when I watch my guys on in their MMA rounds, like it scares me. Like I don't want to see some of the exchanges and some of the scrambles and things, but because they're both going at the same pace and intensity and they're well matched, it seems like we have less risk of injury. But in practice, some of those same things, or in lower intensity training, some of those same things we see being injured.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

Well, that's one of the two core problems in our training rooms, right? It's it's the the the the for me, it's the head and the knees. Yes, it's the head and the knees and the neck to me. Right. Well, yeah, well, I would I would put neck and head together. Um, well, you know, in the brain, of course. Yeah, it's it's and you have to practice the scrambles because you organize more effectively over time. And I just I'm like you, I'm I'm I'm I'm kind of cringing throughout the whole practice. And then it's a sigh of relief when we get to the end. It's not because the practices are reckless, but we're doing a lot of scrambling, a lot of takedowns, a lot of wrestling, and um, and it's and it's the only time I lose my shit if it's if it's malicious. So again, I think these little clips are helpful. I talk about, you know, I want them to be aggressive but not reckless. And I'm just there ready to bark very, very loudly if I see them getting into because it's the torque and takedowns, like you said, when they're falling back and trying to bring their rotate their partner over their legs and stuff. That's really where the 90% of these knee injuries are coming from.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

You know, one of the things I've been I've been saying when I'm coaching is um, you know, there's a saying that your freedom of speech ends at the tip of my nose. Well, something I've been preaching is your creativity ends at my safety. And so be as creative as you can be in solving these problems, but I do want you to take into account your partner's safety as as strongly as your own, you know, choices. And I know we, you know, we're talking perception and action, decision making, and whatnot, but I think it it makes sense like to not try something totally dumb on it on a training partner's knees.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

See, see that this is interesting. You mentioned creativity there, right? So I usually finish this our striking classes where I call them just fucking around rounds, right? Creativity. Just play. I want to see cartwheel kicks, tornado kicks. I don't even really want you making contact so much, but it should look almost like Capoeira, right? I just want you to explore movement and that some guys, I'm not saying that they they'll look better than others, some are just not comfortable being that creative or looking kind of silly and whatnot. So I'm trying to kind of foster a little bit of that too. Like, no one gives a fuck what you look like here. Just play, just flow, try your spinning shit, try all that. Because if we keep doing that at the end of practice, then you never know. It's maybe going to start expressing itself in your fights, but some are some are better than others.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

And then I think the the most important aspect of that is is being in a room, you know, we say being comfortable, being uncomfortable, being in a room where you can you can explore and try and be creative and not suffer intense consequences. I mean, they just the they just that that clip just went back through the rounds. Uh I forget who it was, but someone's sparring and kind of Kevin Lee. Right, yeah, throws what didn't even, when you look at it, didn't even look like a big deal. He just kind of threw this jump knee, it's it's never gonna land. No, it's like almost directly in his own space and then lands and gets dropped. And like you can't be in a room, and we have guys who have left other places recently and come to train with us. And one of the things that when when I talk to a person who's coming in, who's hats and amateur fights, wants to go pro in the future, and I give them the whole spiel about how we do things and what we expect from them as a as a as a student and then as a pro. And it's like we want to create an environment where you can 90% of the time you can explore and have fun and and maybe make a mistake or two, and the consequences aren't dire. Because if you're in a room where it's eat or be eaten, then all you will ever play is your most safe A game. You will be very worried about what happens if you make a mistake, you'll be very worried about all of the other things that prevent you from exploring and getting better. Because if I try something new and I get cracked, well, I don't want that consequence. And so I like how you play in a room like that, uh, Scotty, but there's so many rooms out there that don't allow for any of that. And I think it's just it's so stifling on people's growth.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

They it's not that they don't allow for it, it's that it it's a sh it rolls downhill. And so the you are creative and beat up somebody who's less skilled than you are, and then they beat up and are creative with someone they're less skilled than. I mean, they're more skilled than. And so it rolls downhill. But yes, you'd want you'd want to be able to work with a guy at your level and have an opportunity to be creative with them. But what happens in most rooms is your ability to be creative and play a B game and try different things is on the back of somebody else who's not as skilled as you are. They're your they're your meat, if you will. And then what happens is the you you beat people out of the sport. You know, I've always I've always said that in in a especially in a striking sport, in most places, there is almost no value for a less skilled person to be real sparring someone more skilled than them in striking. Now, if the if the person who's more skilled than them is there to work with the other person, it's different. But in in competitive sparring, then the person who's less skilled is just there to get beat up. You know, that's go back to Mayweather, like the videos that that came that come out of his rounds getting ready for fights, all those rounds almost ended with the other guy basically giving up or getting wobbled, and then they replace him with somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

That's a strange psychology. I've always been fascinated with that. The the the kind of paid spawn partners, it just that's your job. You go in and take a whooping. Or the journeyman man, I'd rather suck cock in a dark alley than get an ass handed to me every day for a few hundred bucks.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

I don't know, I don't know why you can't do both.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Yeah, I could probably do both.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

Seriously.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Topies for one right. You do one during a day and one during night. Maybe I'll need to.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

You might. We should all have that's why we should all have electric vehicles. Take a shot of mouth, we got a few hundred miles down the road.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

So I I made I don't want to talk about it. Um I don't want to talk about that specifically, but um, I made that post yesterday because I was thinking Adam about what I was saying, like doing like doing the thing. And I and I think my my my point was, and I don't know if it gets lost, because when you water it down and try and maybe talk and kind of uh every man speak, it can get some of the meaning can get lost. But it was occurring to me like so two things that as long as we're kind of doing the thing, I think it's always defensible, right? Because I think every coach thinks we get better at what we do, right? But it also occurred to me, and I was trying to be a bit more critical of myself, is that we just assume because we're doing the fighty things and we're doing the thing that we're we're learning. But I'm not sure I'm that's maybe a stretch too. And I'm wondering, even if we're playing the the eco games or the live games or whatever, there can be a lot of just going through the motions. I use the uh kind of analogy to my my the kids all the time that if you're coming to the gym every day and doing you know three sets of ten in the same weight constantly, you're not gonna make much progress. So I think it's really important that these games stretch the players into a discomfort zone or just towards the end of you know a challenge. But I think that comes from the individual, and I'm sure you see this a lot in your room. There's there's athletes that really engage in the brief. They really, really engage, and then there's some that just go through the motions. And I think you can see over time who's developing quicker. Because we're not really, I mean, yes, we're winging it for a lot of the a lot of the time, but we're not just pulling these games out or RC either. There's generally a that there's a a space to develop in these games. And I wondered if you're curious about that. Do you see that in your room that some are just more engaged and really working the game? And I'm not sure how to really get everyone to do that all the time. But then because I can't get them to do it, I'm like, you know, I can only remind them you can't make someone curious, and you really can't make someone get the most out of the game. That has to come from them, I think. And obviously their partner, they've got to be a good, you know, it has you have to be jiving.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

And so my my two cents on that is one, the variability of having different partners will hopefully not allow them to just cruise through.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Right? Because there will be partners that force them to play the the whatever that game is. And so the your variability that's built into your room and partners and things over time hopefully does some of that. And like we started this conversation, that is where I think the the use of constraints is the value. The the whole thesis of Epstein's book, I believe, is that unconstrained freedom does not lead to the best outcomes. That and he talks about this company I had never even heard of that that's had all the money, all the backing, all the brain power called general magic. And they set out to make the first um the first iPhone, it sounds like they set out to make the first usable handheld devices and stuff, and they failed miserably. But everyone and everyone that went from that company ended up being very important at other tech companies in the future. But general magic, this first company, it was completely unconstrained. And so the ideas went wild. The time they spent on certain projects wasted a tremendous amount of time, money, resources. And I think if we can constrain them, and maybe that's where individual constraints or using the CLA on individuals is more effective. But I believe we probably walk around the room and try and do some of that as well as for the group. But I think proper game design is probably part of the answer, proper scaling, right? Isn't that part of our framework? Scaling. So I think scaling is connected to the creativity.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't disagree with that, but I think it's part of it. The other part has to come from the athlete being engaged. And we can we can only engage them through like again, it's going back to you know, if I have to intrinsically motive them motivate them, if I have if it's me that has to motivate them to do that, then it's going to be a challenge. Yes. How and how do we get that motivation from within? And there's there's there's a bunch of research to say how you best foster um intrinsic motivation, right? That you give people an a sense of autonomy, a sense of competency, a sense of belonging. Um, but even then, we're still it's still up to the person. Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:07

But would you when I make a list of the reasons that the issues I have with our approach, the reasons our approach is difficult, two of the first reasons that pop up are that adults get creativity beat out of them most of their lives.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

Right. That was my point on that. That was the point in my end of my class, right? Somewhere like just uncomfortable trying to spin and kick or a superman punch or anything because it feels silly.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

Either it feels silly or they never even consider to spin or do a Superman punch or to go right instead of left because the safe way has been trained into them. They've been spoon-fed and prescribed everything for so long that it's hard for them. And I think that's generally the case with adults. Um, and stubbornness is the other one, right? You'll see a guy just making the same mistake over and over, eating an overhand right over and over because they try and defend the double jab cross the same way, and you're watching them get hit with this over and over, and you're like, Jesus Christ, like, why are you so stubborn? And so those two things work hard against us.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

I think also there's the the idea that those that are progressing faster or with this method better are more intentional with with what they're trying to accomplish. I know that's something that I heard Adam talking about, uh, although I wasn't there for the entirety of class, uh, but speaking about, you know, have an intention for this round, sort of know what you're doing here as opposed to just going through the motions. And then I think the other aspect of people who perform better or who get better faster is that they are more willing to play the game with the rules that are presented, because we talk about the rules create the game, as opposed to just trying to win for the sake of winning. So you set up some task that they're that you want them to really uh deal with in this game. And and if they stick to the task, and if you know, we we set it up because we believe that if they stick to the task, that parts of their game will grow that can then be put into the whole game, that the ones that are willing to try and win with the rules and and focus on the tasks that are presented are the ones that will get more creative in their ways to solve problems. And I think some people, again, we're all different, eight billion, eight billion, right? We're all going to be a little different. The that not everyone is willing to constrain themselves the way that we're asking them to constrain themselves. And that's where we have to go around the room from time to time and point someone out and say, hey, I see you're passing the guard, but I haven't seen you try and pass the guard in this way, or to try and solve passing the guard or things. Willing or willing and able.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Sure. It's always going to be scaling. Yeah, for sure. So then let me ask you a question, Scotty. So let's say that there was something to prescriptive information processing methodology, ignoring how it would work. Are there some people that need That I got there's some people who need much, much more direction. Whatever we call it, whatever it looks like.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

I think absolutely, absolutely there is. So so but I don't but I don't think that necess I don't think that necessarily I can't make the leap from that to say there's different the the what's actually the what's actually happening, what's actually causing it? I know you're not making a leap. Okay. I just want to be clear.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

Yeah, I'm not. I'm just saying, are there people who need their hand held a lot more than other people?

SPEAKER_00 44:30

How's that no I so absolutely, but I think rather the solution for me is rather than holding them their hand is to try and get them comfortable without the hand holding. And maybe maybe I've made how well maybe you have to maybe have to go meet them a little halfway, and maybe I'm I'm not all that is that good at that. I've heard this before when people are saying if ask coach or coach will just tell you figure it out or whatever. And it's it's not quite that, but I I like to have a conversation when someone comes to ask and say, Well, what do you think is going wrong? Let's think about this, right? Um but that's hard in the moment, you kind of stop the class and have a fucking, you know, right interview with your with your your student for 20 minutes, but this is often conversations we'll have at the end of the class. Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

I also think that not everyone truly understands how people learn. So there are certain people that think that that that might think they need to be told more than maybe we tell them. So had for instance had a student who series and said, You had once showed them we worked on a head and arm in class, and you had showed that, you know, one of the ways to work the head and arm to get the arm next to the shoulder or the shoulder next to the neck was to walk your fingers up the mat. And he has been doing that with great success, and it's because you showed it to him. And I said, okay, it is fair to say that Adam showed you something, but let's just not miss the farms for the trees here. You have also now, for a very long time, been working to finish people with head and arms. And he said, Yeah, it's one of my go-to moves. And I said, Well, let me ask you this. Every time you had an arm choke, do you walk someone, do you walk your fingers up the mat to put the shoulder near the neck? Or have you now just really internalized that I've got to put the shoulder near the neck and you were actively pursuing this head and arm choke? And while we were in a tournament, while he was saying that, you know, he needed that instruction, his wife was armbaring a girl who was out and weighed her by 20 pounds from the guard when his wife had never really been shown. Put your foot here, turn here, do like she wasn't ever fed an arm bar from guard. She might have done some rounds where she started in an arm bar from guard and we backed out a little bit, but her arm bar was like yoga-ish, and then the leg came up, and then she threw the girl over onto her back and finished an arm bar. And I'm like, your wife has never really shown how to do an arm bar, but she has been presented with scenarios in a sense that she's had to learn on her own how to find that end position. And now she's finishing Girls Out Out Way Here by 20 pounds with arm bars.

SPEAKER_02 46:52

And here's the thing when that person asked me that question, like I didn't walk up to that person and say, do this. That person had been, first off, very good on top, and was already very close to and has been getting that choke already. So when I shared what I like to do, and I probably shared it by doing it to them first, when I shared what I like to do, they already had a context for that thing. And so it was easy to understand. We didn't do reps of it. I just said I like to walk my fingers up. That's all I did. And if it's that fucking simple, I'm happy to do that for everybody, but it's not that simple for most things, and it's not that simple for everybody. All right, gentlemen, you keep going. I have to go back somewhere. I have to go back to the science factor.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Last question just before you go. So I think we need to get, and I've seen how to do it, right? From from the way I used to perhaps practice, but I think we'll have to be really comfortable as coaches is saying, I don't I really don't care if if the outcome that you got was was even close to what we're looking for. Are we navigating towards it? Are we making any meaningful progress towards it? My my one of my one of my students very kindly made me, maybe saw a lot I made a reveal the other week, made me these 3D printed tokens. And then all the different there was positional ones and the there was um submission ones, right? And I put them all in a bucket. They're nice little primal tokens and I'll have and I I I just set the clock and they come in and they ruffle around the bucket and they'll pick one out. And it might be a left leg sub or it might be R N C or whatever. And it's all different levels in the room and say, right, go. But if you pick out if your tokens are left leg submission, I I don't need to be seeing your your your mechanics for for finishing the leg. I want to just see that you're making meaningable progress or somewhere during the round, you're making your you're you're navigating towards uh getting a hold of that leg somehow. That's enough for me at that stage. Because additional is a long process.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

That's what Roy was saying before. It's like learning in this methodology, the most important thing, important things are intentionality and task focus. And it doesn't matter if you are successful with that task focus, it matters that we see you trying it, we see you moving towards that. And maybe that's part of how we have to redefine what success and failure is. And it's not, it can't be 70% for us, but it is very nebulous. Like, how do you quantify a task, you know, that you are task-focused? How do you quantify, you know, were you task focused 70% of the time? It's it's very difficult to do, and but maybe we have to redefine success and failure for people. All right, I gotta go. I love you guys. All right, have you talked to later?

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Lame. Working for the man.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

Fucking job is working for fucking working for the man. He's got the money, like, but what's that? But he'll he'll have all the money, but he does make some money.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

I get it. Gotta do it. Gotta pay the bills, gotta put your gotta put your daughter through expensive college. Go go work for the man.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Joe, are you ready to come up with the team?

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Let's see. Uh well, we got a in-house gorilla cup. So we've got our nonprofit, our Medellin Monkeys Booster Club, our 501c3. So uh after I'm done hanging out with you for a little bit, I'm gonna go put some brackets together. It's this time around, it's a small group of kids. It ended up being smaller, and I'm sure that's possibly because graduation is this weekend and Mother's Day is Sunday, although I'm not sure how Mother's Day on Sunday affects people on Saturday. So we got that going on. Uh raise some money for our nonprofit, you know, which helps our kids and adults go and do some competing. And it's just a great day of having the parents come in, you know, look at it like a uh a recital, you know, most things that your kids do, you know, if it's the arts and stuff, well, you go and you watch them play piano on stage, or if it's plays, you know, acting and singing and dancing and things of that nature. And if it's sports, you get to go watch your kid play sports. If we don't do these things in-house, then all the parents are doing is coming watching their kids grapple, but they never get to see them perform. So we do this twice a year. So not as many as I wanted, unfortunately, but still I present the opportunities and kids take them or adults take them and we make the most of it. So that's tomorrow. And then uh on the 30th, we've got uh Alex in a second pro fight. Uh Creek, one of my amateurs, uh, who's had to have he has since fought a couple pretty high level not high, high, high level, but mostly wrestlers. And uh this guy, this guy's fighting us in a little slightly smaller cage as a striker, known as a boxer. And uh so we'll see how that goes. And then uh one of my newer, not newer, newer, but came to us with some background. He's fighting a Muay Thai fight in the cage. So we've got one pro, one novice amateur. This will be his third fight, so it's still considered novice. You know, there's no striking on the ground yet to the face, at least. It's all, you know, all the striking on the feet except knees to the face, and then on the ground, it's just to the body, and then uh and then a Muay Thai fight. So that's coming up on the 30th. Uh, so that's where we that's been a focus for the last couple weeks, you know, with the uh Tuesday night training. They warm up. Adam gives them, you know, sometimes he gives them some ideas of how he wants them to warm up. Hey, I'd like to do a stand-up, a clinch in the ground round or whatever it may be. Uh, then as it gets a little closer, it's like, hey, you got 30 minutes, warm up, grab your grab your training partner, warm up, and then we'll do, you know, three threes for my amateur, three twos for the tie, and then three fives. So there's a lot of timers going on on Tuesday. Everybody kind of doing their own thing. And then the guys who aren't fighting, they're either training partners for the guys that are doing their rounds, or they're just like, hey, just here's the round. There'll be three minute rounds. I got the three-minute round. Coach Blackman's got the five-minute round. You know, someone puts a clock on for Ian for the two-minute rounds for his tie boxing and uh and just grab a partner and you know, and go and get good work, and then just trying to keep eyes on everybody. So that's uh that's basically what's happening with the adults at the Gorilla Cup, and then I'm trying to find something to take my uh my comp team kids to for some jujitsu, maybe either in June or July. Uh so yeah, and then but a bunch of kids graduating tomorrow uh and moving away, which is always the hardest part about having a uh martial arts academy in Athens, Georgia, is that uh these kids come, they become an important part of your lives, you know, they spend two, three, four more years with you, and then, you know, a lot of them end up going away and becoming adults. So you both deal with the the loss of people leaving that you really you know have enjoyed having around and care about. And then you try and look at the bright side of that is that you got to affect the lives of of young men and women and hopefully be a positive influence on them during very formative years of their life. Uh, but it never makes it any easier when the people like you really like end up leaving you. Uh and sometimes you see them again and sometimes you don't, and you know, you just you know you hope that you uh you hope that you sent them off better than when they came.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

Yeah, and it's one of the most reassuring things when uh people leave for all kinds of reasons, but when they inevitably come back or they come back to visit and whatnot, it it's really nice. Let me I want to ask you something, and I don't want to put you on the spot here, but you you you're a UFC company man and a fighter and whatnot. I'm I'm curious if you've got your brother would I'm sure have some very strong opinions, but where the kind of where MMA is going just now, the kind of UFC monopoly, the the way the matching fights, just the business, the the the kind of business side of fighting. Have you got you must have feelings on that after being in with a company?

SPEAKER_01 54:04

I can only hope, you know, you see, you st used to see the numbers, and and and I haven't really seen the numbers like we used to we used to get the you know the the pay because it was something that had that was public, you know, so and so made this much money, show and win, and or took home this much money type of thing. I can only hope that people are making more money because there seems to be a lot of shows and uh a lot of opportunity, but you don't see certain you don't see a lot of people fighting a lot. And it is it is difficult to fight for the U to fight at a professional level and not be the only thing that you do. You know, back in the day, I'll use Brian as an example. It wasn't until one of the last maybe his last few fights where he didn't have a job and all he did was train to compete. You know, he had he was working for Pepsi, uh went around and and and stocked shells and things of that nature, but had a full-time job, had health insurance and whatnot. Uh I think those things are super important. And early on, if you're not making a lot of money, then you know you have to do that. You have to have a job, you have to have health insurance. The UFC only takes care of you if you get hurt while you're on contract, uh, which is nice because that was something newer. That is something that's been newer. So at least you know that if you're competing, getting ready for a fight, that if you get hurt, you will at least be taken care of it. It allows you to put your all into your training. But back in the day, that wasn't necessarily the case. Uh so I can only hope these these guys and girls are making more money because many of them are paying 10 or 10 to 20 percent with for a coach, 10 to 20 percent for a manager. And if that's 20 to 40 percent for every dollar you make, and then you lose, that's you know, you're not making a lot of money. So my thoughts are just I I hope they're being well taken care of. I like that the bonus structure has increased, but you know, I I don't know, I don't know for certain. I don't have anybody there right now, and it's not something I talk to Forrest about really, because that he certainly doesn't have any control over that either. I wish there were more high-level opportunities that it wasn't, you know, I'm not gonna go so far as call it a monopoly because other people could certainly start their own, and others have tried, and I don't think it's because the UFC is a monopoly that these other promotions have not fared well. Just think it takes a lot of money. It takes having your own production company, right? That's something that people didn't really know about UFC. Uh, when they did pay-per-views, it's their production company. They might have paid for whatever you pay pay-per-view to have the rights to a stream, but they're doing all, it's it's them marketing it all. It's them filming it all, it's them doing all the things. I mean, it's it takes a lot. There's a reason why it was bought for four billion dollars. It's a, you know, it's it's a big time company, but other people could do it if they could find their own Middle Eastern EM guest to come in and be a part of it and put up all that cash and not really care about losing a lot of it in the beginning. Running a show and doing all that is very expensive. I was part of that many, many years ago with a company, and you know, they they lost a lot of money, and I just don't think they were willing to continue to lose money. You know, you've got to show someone this, you're gonna lose a lot of money, and then maybe you'll break even, and then you might make some money. And there's not a lot of folks out there who just want to drop millions of dollars uh to compete. I wish there were, and there were more opportunities of high-level opportunities for guys to get on TV, to make money fighting, to put their bodies on the line. You know, we don't feel as bad about football players and whatnot putting their bodies on the line and the the CTE that they many of them will inevitably have because they're being paid millions and millions of dollars. They're going into this knowing that this is what the outcome could be if you're in the league for many years. But if you do all the rest of this like you're supposed to financially, then you're not gonna have any worries. You know, you'll have generational wealth. Uh, but even that generational wealth is only for a handful of guys who are at the highest levels of those sports. So if you go into this, you just need to know, like it may or may not work out, and you may or may not make a lot of money, and you need to have an exit strategy. So for us, for my pros, they are students at my martial arts academy. They pay a monthly membership, and that is it. And when we talk about guys who want to come in and want to fight pro, I'm like, hey, I don't take money, there's no coaching fee here. You're gonna pay a monthly membership. There's no, you know, I'm not your manager, so you know, go get management, but just know that you'll pay them between 10 and 20%. And regardless of what you do, they're gonna take their piece because once you sign that contract, whatever you do, they're gonna take a piece. Even if you find your own fights or your own sponsorship, they're gonna take a part of that. But I'm not gonna take any extra money from you. You're not gonna go fight for five and five, lose, and have to give me 10 or 20%. I want you to just make as much money as you possibly can because regardless of whether or not this is three years, five years, 10 years, 15 years, you're Jim Miller. Jim Miller's fighting again, right? It's still fleeting. And hopefully you'll live a long and prosperous life after fighting. And I want you to just make as much money as possible. Like I said to James one day, I was like, one day if you fight in the UFC and make a bunch of money, maybe you can buy me some epinephrine because that shit's expensive. But that's it. You know, if you can afford to fly me out or the promotions can fly me out, then great, fly me out. But guess what? If you can't, I'm gonna buy my own fucking ticket because I'm not gonna not be there. Like the business will pay for me to go, and then I'll write that off. But I'm like, whatever in the future you want us to do monetarily to say thank you when you have made a bunch of money, hopefully, awesome. But I don't want it, I don't want any of it. And it just makes life so since I have done that, it has made life so much easier, also, because sometimes you got a fighter who's like, I don't, I'm not gonna pay you for that anymore because I'm gonna do it on my own. And then I don't have to feel bad. We don't have to get into BS arguments. It's just like, cool, pay a monthly membership, take care of what you can take care of based on you know finances and whatnot. And and make us, you know, make it just go go go fight your heart out and know that every dollar that you have busted your ass to train to to make is yours. So then I can only hope that the UFC is taking care of guys that are giving their all to that organization because without them it does not exist.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

Right. Well, it's like anything, right? The workers don't know how much power they have. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

And everybody wants to fight in the UFC, so there's always gonna be someone, right? You're never gonna get guys picketing, you know, you know, uh and crossing lines, and you know, there have been some some lawsuits and stuff, but those guys are outside of the sport now. They're not looking to fight. And I don't know if if that blackballs their fighters that they may have. So that you know, they look at a camp like, oh, that guy, that guy shoot us, so you guys don't get to come here anymore. Like, I don't know. I don't I certainly I certainly don't want to be a part of anything like that that might affect my guys. So I can just hope that they're they're taking care of people still, whether it's whether you know how familiar are you with the Ali Act? I I know that they were trying, I know that that was coming back in front of courts, but I haven't really done my research on it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

Okay. Do you do you know what what what is it? What's the Ali Act in a nutshell? Is it just that fighters are independent contractors?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:19

I'm not even sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:20

Okay, I guess there is an Ali Act and I don't want to talk on it then because yeah, talking about shite, but that was my understanding was the difference with um boxing. Is it boxing boxers? Yes, they're signed to promotions. Again, I might be way off here, but they they they own they they're like independent contractors. With that 909s, they're getting 1099s instead of W-2s, which I'm pretty sure I think that might be what's happening.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:44

I'm not sure I'm pretty sure the UFC is still only giving out 1099s. I don't know if they're doing W-2s. You are not you are not a salaried employee, you are a contractor, and I'm pretty sure that's still the case.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

That's interesting. Because I I actually thought there were employees now, given that that's why they had the uniforms and there was no sponsorships in that. So that's interesting. I don't know. So I'm sure someone will correct us. Were you did now? Did you have sponsorships when you were fighting, or was that uniforms?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:11

No, I was pre I was pre-uniform, so I never had a I never had a kit. So like I remember when I fought Jason McDonald's in Ireland or Northern Ireland, whatever. Yeah, Belfast, I guess Belfast City is where we fought. Uh I I traveled with my, you know, my tube with my banner in it. I had my shorts and my shirt and stuff. I remember actually leaving the banner on the train and fucking nearly freaking out until my friend who was with me, my friend Dave Muborne is one of my longtime black belts and friends and training partners. He ran from the hotel back into the train station. Thankfully the train was still there. He got up, you know, reached up, and he came running back to me in his flip-flops and shit or his sandals. That was like uh it was like a $15,000 banner or whatever it was. I can't remember. But it was I know there were a lot of quotes. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:58

It wasn't because it was a banner, it was because it was sponsorship on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:00

Yeah, all the people on it. So that was back back when we did those fights, you know. You you your your corners hung the banner inside the cage, and then you hopefully got you walked back and forth so that the camera would scan back and forth over the banner, and then you know, hopefully you get paid uh by all those people. And you had shorts with, you know, that you got embroidered and and and heat pressed and whatnot. So that was me. Remember, my last fight was 2000 for the UFC was either 2007 or 2000, maybe was 2008, maybe was my last fight in UFC. Uh and then I and then, you know, I I lost outside the UFC and then I finally got cut. So that was my four fights in the UFC. Uh and then some amount of years later was was the sponsorships and no more banners and no more things on your shorts and of that nature. But those, yeah, those are big, you know, made some made some decent money. There were some fights, you know, I lost to McD lost to McDonald's. I don't remember how much that if I was on a 10 and 10 at that point. So the I made more into sponsorship, I think, for that fight than I probably made fighting him since I lost and still show win. I wish, I wish that would change. And that's one of the one things I don't still don't quite understand. And again, haven't really asked anybody about it, but boxing is a purse. You know, you win or you lose, and you make money. I'm I'm not sure why MMA, and even at the lower levels, for most of MMA at the lower levels, is all show win as opposed to purse. Something I never figured out. I don't know why it's it's it's the but the boxing model in that respect is not the MMA model. Now there are certainly promotions that if you're a bigger name, you're like, well, this is what you're gonna pay me. And we're just it's just flat. You know, but uh still much of it is is show winning. I don't know why. Do you have any thoughts on why it's so drastically different than boxing in that respect?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:50

No, I don't, but I I would like to see a meaningful change. I mean, again, I I I I don't know, so I'm just speculating here. I'd like to see fighter pay doubled, and I'm not it's unclear to me how much of the the actual business that would hurt.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:03

Yeah, especially if you say that. You would make millions of dollars, CEOs of of companies making you know giant salaries. And again, if you run a multi-billion dollar company, that your what we would consider everything is, you know, everything's relative, that your big salary is is is still a drop into buckets. But yes, you would like to see you would like to see fighters get paid more. Uh and again, maybe they are being paid more these days than they used to be. Like I'm not involved, so I haven't seen what a I haven't seen what that contender contract looks like. I haven't seen, you know, what after a fighter fights there, three fights, you know, or whatever that can, but you know, you get signed for contender and now you're in the UFC because they're not the same company, uh, what that what that contract looks like. Is that is that first contract 10 and 10? Is it 20 and 20? You know, and then you at the same time though, if if if if you're on if you're on a Mayweather card, let's say back in the day, you're on a Mayweather card, you're one of the one of the first fights on a Mayweather card, you're fighting a four-rounder or a five-rounder or whatever it may be, you're not making a lot of money. Mayweather's making a lot of money for sure, but you're probably not making a lot of money. Now, you're a bigger name, you're, or maybe you're local, whatever it may be, but you're getting paid to a certain amount of money for the rounds that you've, you know, agreed to fight. So I don't know how different that is, but we look at the UFC and we're like, okay, well, they're fighting on a UFC card. They should be being paid more because it's the UFC. But some of those guys fighting on that UFC card have only had seven or eight pro fights. Are they really should they really be making that much money? So, you know, I can see both sides of it, but then the guys who are at the top, you know, those guys don't seem to complain. They seem to be making seven figures. Yeah, seven figures. Now, should they be making larger seven figures? I don't know. Are they making really good money out in sponsorship because they are at the highest level? Again, I don't know. But you you see some of these guys and their cars and their houses. And I I I know if you go outside and look at my Kia Cervento, and you want to look at how much my mortgage is for the house I'm living in right now, you know, uh, it's it's we're we're not my our bank accounts are not the same.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:18

Um, so that's interesting. So when we talk about you know all these complex constraints on systems and whatnot, and we're just we're back to naval gazing. If you if you made all the salaries tenfold right now, how do you think that would change the quality of the fights and just the the the skill ecosphere more generally? Because before you say that, I think one of the it's kind of a bit of a tragedy here. Because I think when fighters are getting paid the most, they're probably over the they're probably on the downhill of their career. I think when they're getting like the bigger names towards the end of the career where they're really making bank. I think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:00

Maybe they're they're they're they're not at the down yet there, but they're they're getting towards the precipice.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:04

Right. But when they were hungry and they were driven and they were working their ass off and they were fresh and they were, you know, they hadn't accumulated the damage and stuff. Uh that's when they're probably getting paid the least amount. Yeah, uh there's probably there's just mentioned Jim Miller, you know. I'm sure he's getting paid handsomely.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:21

Yeah, I mean, 40, whatever amount of craziness fights that he's had, it's actually, yeah. Uh there's there's likely some points where they they are still young and hungry and on the up that that that crosses some line where now they're getting paid a little bit more. But I mean, you look at a guy, let's let's use so what would happen? So let's take it a different couple different ways. So kid who's making 10,000, 10,000 all of a sudden overnight goes to 100,000 and 100,000. I don't I don't know what that does to the bottom line of the company. And I'm not sure if that changes much or anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:59

Let's forget the bottom line. Let's just say there was a tenth increase in entry-level UFC fighters. Do you think that would change the landscape of who's coming in the sport, who's really staying in this? You don't you think fighters are fighting because they're just want to be fighters?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:13

I mean, so okay, so then the question that that you're asking is does it bring in a higher level of athlete if we believe that athletes chase money?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:24

Does it change does it does it meaningfully change how guys fight and who fights? And you can say the other way around. I mean, there's there's I think about this a lot, right? The maybe Olympians and whatnot, there's some obscure sports that pretty much get no one watches, they all get paid for a call, but these athletes dedicate their lives to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:44

Sure. Uh yes, I I get what you're saying. So I don't know because are we talking about this happening system-wide? Yes. So is this thought experiment saying that now, like my guy James or Alex, who's fighting, so Alex, who's fighting on the 30th, uh, second pro fight, not making a lot of money, he'll likely make more in commissions than not likely, he will make more in commission selling tickets because the commission structure is actually pretty one of the best commission structures in probably in in regional fights. So he'll make more money for the ticket sales than he will for winning this fight, right? Uh so if we all of a sudden say everybody's making more money, that certainly might change who goes into the sports. And it certainly would would likely change someone how they fare in a sport. Because I know that if Alex ends up making 10 times what he's gonna make, then that would replace his salary for the job he has. Now, how much it replaces, again, is dependent upon winning and losing, right? That was always one of the things Adam, you know, tried to, you know, losing a fight almost hurts. Again, losing hurts. Don't get me wrong, I never liked losing, and almost after every loss, I was gonna quit because what the fuck? Why do you do this? And then you make such shitty money because you lost half your purse. So losing hurts your pocketbook, sometimes even more than it hurts your pride, because you got bills to pay and shit, people who want your money. So maybe it allows a fighter to dedicate more time, effort, and energy to fighting at the lower levels, and maybe that makes them better faster than a guy who's got to go to work for seven or eight hours and then only has so much time to train, because then you know he's got to go home and get eight hours of sleep. Uh, so maybe it changes the landscape of fighting if everyone, not just UFC, because I don't think that's gonna change much if if we're not changing the base level, because you still have to go to work and you still need to have health insurance if if you're trying to do this smartly. You need to have a job, you need to have health insurance. Uh and you know, you get hurt in a fight and you have a job, you still get to go, you still get to make money. You get hurt in a fight and you don't have a job, well, what the fuck do you do for the next three or four months? So like you gotta make a lot of money, or you have to live very smart for it all to work out. And until until like there's way more money, you're just I just don't think it it changed, you know, it the landscape changes at the highest levels uh if if if it doesn't change at the at the lowest levels.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:31

Right. It's such a gamble. But I think I mean you I would imagine you've been there, you have to have a certain level of delusion, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:42

For sure. You and we have as coaches, you know, we have to be able to you know what's the I I got a guy who called who was messaging me who stopped messaging me after a while because I'm just like, I don't, I don't like you're this old, you have this many kids, you have never done this before. I'm like I'm just being honest, dude. I'm not wanting to tell you you can't do this thing, but at 38 years old, making your pro debut, like uh this is this is not how you take care of your family, your wife and your family. I'm sorry. You know, so poor business strategy probably, but you know, you have to sometimes help people, like you said, with their delusions. You're a young kid living in Athens, you're working at the bars, you know, you're making a little money, you've got someone who sees some potential in use who's willing to sponsor you for a couple months and like then you you run with it because at 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, whatever it may be, like you're young enough to do this thing. And if it doesn't work out, you're gonna be okay. You know, I have told a couple of my younger guys, I'm like, listen, you could go get a job, you could go do this thing, and you could say, what if for the rest of your fucking life? But you're 20 years old or 21 years old, fuck off for a little bit and try this. You're either gonna be good at it and it's gonna go somewhere or you're not. And then what is three or four years of your life at 20 to 25 or even 20 to 30? You know, I I you know, I had the gym, I had some other things in my life, so it was it was easy for me to to to do this. But in 2009, after losing to Brian Baker in in in Canada, I'd already been cut from the UFC, I think, because I lost another fight. Uh, and and then I was like, this this would be the fight to get me back, and it should have been the fight to get me back, but shit happens because it's MMA. Then the gym opens and now I'm I'm I'm running like this this the gym we've been in for now since 2009. You know, been teaching in Athens for 30 years, but we've been in this location since 2009. I'm running the gym and I'm trying to build that as a business. And and then that becomes the thing because I don't now want to go fight for five and five or a thousand and a thousand and take time off from building this other thing that will have a future. So that's like third 2020. I'm 30, what, 33? So I'm not that fucking old. But I just, it was, it had seen its course. It wasn't, it wasn't here anymore. I didn't have it here anymore to go put myself through that. Uh married for a year at that point, I think, as well. So, you know, do all that when you're young. Again, that's why my 20-year-olds, I'll talk into giving some real hard thought to it. But the 30-something-year-old who's like, I'm gonna take care of my family by doing this, when you've already got two kids, a wife, a job, is like, no, I gotta be honest with you. This is probably not, this is not the place. You think you're gonna fight in a year, maybe, but it might not happen here. It might not happen for two years. You might not be pro for four years. Now you're fucking 40. Like, dude, this is not the way. I don't want to be a part of that. Maybe that makes me an asshole, but I think that's the right thing to tell someone. You you need to find someone else who's gonna who is going to fast track you, and I'm not gonna fast track you.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:38

Yeah, it's a fine balance to crush someone's delusions and um, you know, foster them. But like you're right, it's it's different, different from normal, right? It is, it is, it's yeah, it's not the same.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:48

So I'll I'll I'll I'll help a young person if this is what they think they want to do with their lives, and I will do my best to steer them and prepare them for that. But they've got to know, and I'm I'm honest with that. Like, this is gonna be tough. You know, I think you should go have a real job, you know, because unless you're training eight hours a day, why the fuck don't you have a real job? Get up in the morning and lift, go to work from eight to five, come in and train from six to whatever, go home, get a good night's sleep and a good dinner, and go to bed and wake up and do this again. At least you'll have health insurance. One of my last amateur fights ended with 19 stitches in my head, like right here somewhere, two subdermal, and a doctor touching my skull because I had a full thickness cut in my freaking hairline. Because I took a knee that didn't quite impact, it sheared, and there was a lot of blood. And there was knees to a downed opponent back then, I think, as an amateur, and maybe there were elbows, I can't quite remember. So I'm on my hands and knees, being kneeed in the head as well, which is fucking absurd for an amateur fight that was only three four-minute rounds instead of three five-minute rounds, and I didn't get fucking paid. It's like that's nonsense. But where that story's going is I showed up to work on Monday with my head all swollen and bandaged to go work my job as a research engineer at the University of Georgia. Now, back then in 2000, that was 2000, right? I think I made my that was 2000 and whatever it was. 2001, right? 2001. So I'd recently graduated from UGA, was fighting amateur. Adam and I were running the club, still probably at UGA, or we might have moved to our first location, running the, so we might have been running our first gym, or or either UGA running our first gym outside of UGA, had some amateurs. This was, again, my last, I think that'd be my last amateur fight. It was the beginning of 2001 or early in 2001. By the end of 2001, I'm in South Africa fighting as a pro. Because why the fuck with the rule set going on in Georgia? Why would I continue to fight as an amateur with knees to the head and make no money? This opportunity presents itself in South Africa. My first profile. But I had, I was making like back then, I was making like 35 to 37 grand living in Athens with no responsibility, uh, living in an apartment with a with a roommate, like that's that's what you did. You know, that that was easy to do. I could do all of that. Uh, and then fought pro for a couple years until I went on to UF. But again, the the fight took care of all that. But I had a job, I had health insurance, I had money, so I could pursue this other thing much more, in my opinion, responsibly. Right? I've always been responsible in that respect. Maybe that's that's upbringing, you know, got the engineering degree, so I was working. But yeah, like my boss wasn't happy about me coming to work with a giant bandage around my head and shit. Hey, boss, gotta gotta fight on, gotta fight on Friday or Saturday night. Got some stitches in my head. Not, I'm not really public facing anyway, so get over it. I can still do my job. But that's you know, it's what I tell, I tell fighters, you know, you don't need you unless you're gonna dedicate every hour that you would be working to this thing, which most amateur fighters aren't, even most low-level pros aren't, then go get a job and have some health insurance because if you get hurt in a room, who's gonna fucking take care of that?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:05

Actually, you brought up a you brought up a point there just before we round off, and I wanted to get maybe Mladen, uh, is it Youngovich? I think his name is Mladen from the the chat to talk about because he didn't know like his PhD and his periodization and stuff. But a guy Finn just came back after a rib injury. I think I mentioned this the other day, and he the consensus was he felt sharper, quicker, everything just felt better, and he was already really good. And I noticed this thing in me, and I put it out to the the group the other day, so I'm like you you understand what I'm saying, but I'm explaining this for anyone listening. That I used to work for when I was training and doing my amateur fighting, or or just training generally, I was working in offshore oil in in the Norwegian in Norway, so I'd go away for just over two weeks and I'd come back, so two weeks of doing relatively nothing, maybe I'd work out of the gym and stuff. I'd come back and I always felt on fire, always felt just tip-topping, really sharp the first week back. And this happened routinely. And when I threw that out to the when I threw that out to the group, everyone was kind of saying had similar stories. And I'm curious what's going on there. Or we're just telling ourselves a story. I'm moving.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:10

I don't I think it it's a a a certain amount of anecdote is you know becomes starts to become something for sure. And I don't, and I I think, I mean, there's there's a there's there's likely a variety of reasons. I think when I was reading all of that, I had I did not, I hadn't, I don't think I chimed in, but I was reading what everyone had to say, you know, the the thing that I I think that resonated with me the most was almost the uh the idea of for of forgetfulness. Like we were talking about forgetting certain things. Now, whatever that would be, you know, technically, I certainly don't know. But the idea that when you come back to the room, hey, with time off, I think injuries heal and things heal and you just physically feel better. So I think there's something to be said about taking time off and letting your body recover. You know, I see that with my son right now, who's 14 and a half, and I just had to buy double XL gloves for him to be a receiver on his freshman football team. The fuck is that about? He's 14 years older than him, still taller than him. Double XL adult gloves.

unknown 1:21:08

Big fucking hands.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:09

Uh, but like watching him overwork himself from time to time because he's really just he's gung-ho about all of it. Training, lifting, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, and then him coming back after some time off and feeling better and moving better and performing better. I think that's one part. And I think the other part, maybe we we rid our brains of of some bullshit, of, of, of ways, maybe bullshit ways that we want to do things or things that have not quite cemented themselves yet because we haven't been in the environment enough to play with them, to make them to, I guess the words embody, right? If we're gonna navel gaze, we haven't really embodied certain things yet. So I believe that maybe what it does is just forces us to interact in the problem space with things that we're really comfortable with and good at, so that some of the noise has left. Some of the noise that might have us take other paths that aren't for us as cemented, so that we're really playing the game that in that moment really is what is our A game. Because we've lost a little bit of the B game, or because we've lost a little bit of the B game, we're playing this A game, and then that opens up other avenues that to us in that moment might be novel, so that someone who's our trainer point is like, man, you've never done that before. And like, yeah, I don't know where the fuck that came from. It's because your your your your your brain is is processing things differently because it's left the space, the the grappling space or the kickboxing space, the MMA space, whatever it may be, so that your brain is now processing things a little bit differently.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:49

I don't know, maybe. Yeah, yeah, I've nothing to push back on. I'm certainly interested in it, and it's something I want to investigate more. Maybe it's a maybe it's a myriad of things, or maybe it's not happening, and we're just that we're we're just making up a story. There seems to be something there. But I like what you said about the noise, and that might be wildly speculative and we're maybe bullshit, but I'm I'm I'm interested in uh and and the last point in. I'm interested in investigating that for the last point. Just say there was some kind of underlying function, and we said, you know, the optimum time to take off and come back and really be at your best is two to three weeks. Do you think you could convince fighters to do that?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:24

So like after like after a fight, maybe or no, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:27

Coming up to a fight. So you're hard because what do we do typically, Rory? We're beat the fuck out of them just a week out, right? Yeah. And then we'll have a the here the last hard session is going to be a a week out. And this is kind of industry standard, right? I don't know, but do you do that? I would say we're we're we're we're somewhat I'm trying to always get them to ramp up to game speed. And then the last week or so, I just want them chilling and getting their their So that's that's not the same though.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:51

So I don't I don't know if you and I are or you know, I don't know, Adam, if Adam's want to really putting it all together. I don't know if you and Adam are really beating the shit out of your athletes leading up because we don't have to beat the shit out of each other to get to game speed.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:05

No, no, correct. So we're beating the share each other is a bit like it's that implies that implies uh I say I'm kind of recklessness or intensity, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:12

So but maybe so then maybe so then maybe so then we're since we're not doing that, maybe you don't need an athlete to take that time off. You you would likely would have a hard time having an athlete take two to three weeks off. But maybe after the fight, and then we don't, you know, they want to be in there, so good luck. But maybe after the fight, that would be an experiment to run with a guy and say, hey, uh, you know, I don't want you to train for the next two to three weeks. Don't don't sit at home and get all big and fat. Uh, maybe go run and do a little road work and stay in shape, do some lifting, do a little bit eating, recover for two to three weeks and come back and see what happens. You know, you you would be hard pressed to have a guy, girl who's actively fighting to probably take that time off. But maybe, maybe you could get a guy or girl in a room that's just, you know, more of one of your civilians, but still gets after it. You know, like we've got guys in a room who probably will never fight, but they want to be in a room and train hard. They like that intensity, they like being a part of the guys getting ready for things. Uh, but maybe that's an experiment you can run. Maybe you even keep them close by, but they just don't train. Like, I don't know, you'd have to set up uh an experiment of some kind. And, you know, what's your controls and what are the variables you're trying to play with? But you said it in that chat. Many others said it in that chat, many others said it about themselves and athletes that had taken time off and came back. So again, at what point does anecdote become something worth investigating? Uh, I I don't know. Uh, but there's probably an experiment that could be run. I just you like you said, you're gonna have a hard time getting getting your top guys to to take that time off.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:47

Well, I think there's a rabbit hole, another rabbit hole I'm gonna go down and and try and get someone who might know to talk to me about it. But if if there's a if there's even a little bit of a less is more phenomenon, I think we I'd like to embrace that. Because if if we can do a less is more, if we can do a less because that's I've I've spoken about this a lot. I want the minimum effective dosage of head strikes to get good at striking. So that maps so well to less is more.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:15

And then you know, what are other things that maybe we're not getting as much time on, you know, strength and conditioning, things of that nature. Like what are other things that you could replace that would still have crossover to the cage to fight nights, so that you know we're limiting, we're limiting trauma, but but but building, but still building, uh, I think that would, you know, that would be that would be great. I I don't see how that would be a I don't you know how it'd be a bad thing, how less is more in regards to trauma, head trauma. But also, I mean the the the trauma that we put on our bodies, you know, there's you know the bumps and bruises. The I mean if you if you if you asked if you interviewed a hundred fighters, you know, the hundred fighters or so on however many cards, UFC cards you'd have to you'd have to ask. So there are what 15, there are 11, 12 fights. So you've got 24. So the last five UFC cards, let's say, you get about a hundred fighters. If you ask those hundred fighters what their physical and mental state was going into their fights, and you, you know, one to ten, whatever, physically, mentally beat up, whatever you came up with as how many of them would, you know, be like they were fucked up physically and mentally going into their fights. Right. So if you could if you could affect some change in people physically, psychologically, by learn by knowing if if if less was more, then you know, maybe you're on to something.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:38

But who knows?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:39

We'll finish you off as as we usually say it, it's complex, right? It is complex. Then we just watch uh then we just watch a little thing about complexity science. Right. So yeah, it's complex.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:49

All right, my man. I will uh probably we'll catch up next week and I'll see you up in Minnesota.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:55

For sure, man. I can't wait. All right. Talk to you later, dude.