Learning to Fight - Andy Grahn (The Academy MN) - Episode 25

Learning to Fight Podcast — Conversations in Combat Skill

After a year-long hiatus, the Primal MMA Coaching Podcast is back—Rebranded, and refocused as the Learning to Fight Podcast: Conversations in Combat Skill.

Your hosts are:

Adam Singer — Co-owner and head coach at SBG Athens, BJJ black belt, long-time MMA coach, with years of developing novice to elite level fighters. Student of Matt Thornton and SBG's philosophy of 'aliveness'.
Scott Sievewright — Co-Owner at Primal MKE, MMA skills coach and obsessive student of how humans learn to move and fight. 

Together, we dive deep into the art and science of coaching, training, and skill development in combat sports.
 Expect honest conversations about MMA, striking, grappling, practice design, contemporary research, traditional approaches, ecological dynamics, and the messy realities of learning under pressure.

No gurus. No dogma. Just two coaches trying to understand fighting a little better each week.

Same curiosity. New lens.
Learn how to learn.
Find your own style.
Thrive on the mats—and in the cage.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

And our friend and coach Andy Graham. How are you? Andy? Good, good. Good morning to you guys. I'm still waking up, so I'll let you boys start off. That was a problem.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Put some cat put your Zinn packet in. Uh oh. So what is what do you mean upgraded to what? The next level?

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Well, VLO, it's just a little bit more, you know.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

The joke around my gym, we found an article once that if you put those packets in your butt or in your foreskin, they are more effective. I'm gonna use that. I've only got two left. Put one in each place. Yeah. And so that's the joke. Like for a while it was like, all right, who's got zin in their foreskin today?

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Yeah, we got a bunch of wrestler kids that just have those in while they're training the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

They have a minute. Yeah, well, that's why minor in my butt. I'll see them training sometimes and they'll have the outline of the packet like in their shorts, like under their and I'm like, are you that addicted that you can't just put that on the side? It has to be on you the whole time. It's crazy. But you know, they make a caffeine packet now you can put in the same place.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

See, and they're probably rich from that too. That they probably make a million dollars from something silly like that. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

I don't know why they're not combined yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

There you go. That's that's you.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

What's your thoughts on I tell you, something something, these little science nuggets just rattle in my head. And I'd read years and years ago about the smokers' paradox, right? That smokers tended to have lower incidence of um cognitive decline and Alzheimer's and whatnot, if the lung cancer didn't get them. I'm not advocating for smoking. And there was an interest in nicotine as being neuroprotective. And I've I've read both things on that. Got any thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 1:46

I have no idea. I would be surprised. Some of that pop psychology stuff, I would be surprised if there isn't a lot of mixed evidence. Kind of like you know, the headgear issue in boxing, right? Like there's mixed evidence on both sides, whether it's protective or or harmful.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Oh, it's definitely mixed. I'm just uh there's certain areas of research I cherry pick. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Me too. Me too. Me too.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

I mean, anything that benefits me, I'll I cherry pick. Exactly. Um, I would say this just without knowing, without looking into it. I bet there is some amount of nicotine that is neuroprotective. The problem is the you don't take nicotine because it's neuroprotective, you take nicotine because it feels a certain way. And the amount of nicotine that makes you feel a certain way goes up and up and up, and that is probably more than is neuroprotective. I don't disagree with any of that.

unknown 2:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

And then coming off it, you know, I know smoking is physiological and psychologically addicting, but nicotine is certainly physiologically addicting. Just like the caffeine in your hand.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Well, I used to I I I used to push back on that, but but I think you're probably right. Did have you have you read, you know, we're all over the place already. Did you read, is it was it chasing the screen? What was the what was the that book on addiction by the English fella, Bean on Rogan and stuff? I think it's chasing the screen. It's about addiction and whatnot. He was talking about nicotine in and of itself uh wasn't addictive. It was the ritual and the habit and the delivery system. But I've read different things on that.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Yeah, Zan is not making billions of dollars because it's not addictive. Yeah. Yeah, for real. Right. I mean, I I like to say that marijuana's not addictive either, but you know. I've never done it before, but I assume it's addictive. I never inhaled.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

So uh Scotty, before you came in, screen by Yuan Hari, you enjoy it. It's all about addiction and stuff. It was interesting.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Well, he's the guy that invented the the mechanisms that have addicted us all to social media. I I once heard him say Jonathan High School. No, I'm thinking of of Hari, the attention he wrote a book called The Attention Economy, right? Maybe he's been on Rogan. I I'm pretty sure it's him, even if it's not, I'm pretty sure it's him. And he said that when they designed all these social media things, they based them off of slot machines. And I've never been able to unsee that.

unknown 4:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

And if you if you've ever been to a and you've been to a plenty of casino, what was it called? Is it the attention economy? Something like that. Let me see. Jamie, pull it up. I wish we had a Jamie. We're both we're both our own Jamie.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

That was actually by Carl and Nelson Field. Yeah, that's a different book. Anyway, um last thing I'll see on Nicotine, although he's a little disgraced now. Peter Tia was a big advocate for it. Peter Thiel just blew up. Peter Tia.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

It's called Stolen Focus. How you can't pay attention, how to think deeply again.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

He's the guy that designed. That's Joe, that's Joe Johan Hari.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Yeah. He designed the how he interfaced with a lot of the social medias and that idea of the and now look at it and you'll see it's uh it's a slot machine. Yeah. All right, Scotty, before you came, Andy was laying out his horrific knee history. Can you explain go ahead? And so I he his the last one happened at a judo club, and someone had done a move called a Taniatashi, right? Tanyatoshi. Taniatoshi. I'm not good with the Japanese names. I know what it looks like. It's the old man. Right? It's supposed to be some people call it the old man. Oh, it's the valley drop. The valley drop. I've heard it referred to have like a side bear hug, and then you're you kind of trip them backwards. And if done properly, I I've heard it that that's the that that is what old man judo sort of looks like because it's there's no amplitude, there's no effort, you're basically using your body weight to the stuff.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

So you're falling. You're falling to pull them over. So it's not, it doesn't require a lot of explosive power. It's it's you know done done. I mean, most judo moves, theoretically speaking, done right, shouldn't requ should require the minimal amount of energy, basically.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

But this one appears to result in more horrific knee injuries than than almost any other take down.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Yeah, we've had it twice at the academy, and I and I've you know heard from a lot of other coaches around the country that that um this is the one that that wrecks you know one of the three top knee wrecking moves, you know, jumping close guard, we've had people get messed up from that. Kani Basami has been banned, you know, uh except for tournaments. Um so you'll so there are some videos back in the day of people getting, and probably some modern ones too, but but uh yeah, scissor takedown on it. Yeah, I'm not familiar with it.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Yeah, I'm not familiar with the Japanese either. Yep. Yeah, it's the scissor takedown. But yeah, yeah. Three three times you've done your ACL. This I'm on my I'm getting my third one fixed. Same side. Same side, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

So uh what so I I I so this leads me to two questions then, Andy, or two two points we can we can talk about. How I have some rules in my gym for the wrestling portion, right? And and so jumping would be one of them, right? Nothing where you have to jump. And nothing where you're allowed to fall to make the other person fall. How how and and they've been good, they've stopped people from doing those things, but I assume they also sort of get in the way of creativity. But when you make rules, how do you see them being followed in the gym during live work?

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Well, I think first of all, I think there's like a cultural element to this where when people have trust with each other, they they are not so hyper competitive that they're you know doing things where people can get hurt. First of all, they're not actively trying to hurt their partner while we're doing something that actually is trying to hurt someone. Um so I think that's the the most biggest important thing that the culture is good, that everybody trusts everybody and everybody feels safe. Um, I think when people start to have a lack of trust and get hyper competitive, that's where things get a little too risky and intense. Um and then yeah, I don't, it's not like I'm constantly like your rules. I I have the same type of rules. I don't constantly say them, but they I think it kind of comes from me to the you know advanced people to the semi-advanced people to the intermediate advanced. It kind of just bleeds down through the school, and so it gets enforced that way. And I think that's really the only way you can do it. I mean, what am I gonna do? Sit up there every class and announce these are the techniques, these are the things you can't do. Like um there are certain things, certain cues that I'll say often, but I this the safety thing is just a lot of common sense. And I think the problem with traditional, a lot of and the judiclub that I'm at is very traditional. The problem is, as you guys know, that there's this very static drilling where it's very dead, and then uh lots of talking and analyzing of moves, a bunch of really hard repping of witchy comi and throws on the crash band. Then it's Randori. And then there's no the middle space where a lot of the good learning is is occurring. I mean, we do we actually do French Randori, so I don't want to talk really bad about the club. It's a it's the best club in Minnesota, and the senseis are all great. Um, and I got my black belt there and I and I I love the team and everyone, but um the middle speed and the sort of the middle ground where there's possibilities for success and failure, and we're working on detecting opportunities, is where all the good learning happens. And there's not there's less time dedicated to that, those middle areas of for lack of a better um analogy than I would like. And I think that's where we develop a sense of safety and avoid dangerous stuff.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

So I want to come back, put a pin for one second. I made a note that middle area, because I want to that's a question I want to discuss with you guys because it came up recently, but I want to stay on this thread for a second. Um so you're talking about the rules, something Greg and I were talking about this, and when he's designing a drill where one of those rules might be broken, that's when he'll highlight that as a constraint. Okay. So how does he know when they're gonna break the rule? Right. He knows, and and we all know like if we're doing stuff where we're working towards body locks and they're allowed to finish, that that's where they may you know do something. Standing. Yeah. Right, standing. Or like one of my rules is if you lift them, you have to put them down. Right. So we avoid all kinds of slams and mat returns. So if we're doing drills where mat returns are going to be an answer, then that's when I'll highlight that rule. Yeah. Not not during like my my high-level practice where they are always mat returning each other. I expect them to know that and the culture to do that. But the middle level students who are just learning how to finish these things live, that's when I'm constantly trying to help them with these.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

Yeah. I mean, I think I see what you're what you're getting at. And I I I've been struggling with like how do we do these big amplitude throws that our students are going to see in tournaments and fights, right? Um, and put it into, you know, get it into a drill or a context. And I I I don't have the answer, but what I but my my anecdotes are this. I have them do what is called French Randori at the judo club. Right. I like I I kind of tweak the dials on it a little bit. And I don't ever really formally teach sometimes after practice, when if they ask me about something, I'll give them the answer. But I don't formally teach judo throws in the jujitsu or MMA practices that I run. But my students do them in tournaments and and fights, and so it's emerging. And so, whatever I'm doing it at the moment, my anecdote is that it's working, and you know, I'm open to criticism on that. I don't know that I'm right about that, but I I recently had my one of my top female purple belts go to the New York Open, and she came back and she goes, Hey, I hit Tomoinage and Sumi Gaiesh, which are which is the Captain Kirk throw, and it's one of my favorite throws. And uh, she's like, I've never even done it, I just did it in the tournament. And I'm like, Huh, okay. This is awesome. I wanted the video, but they they didn't get the video of it.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

So we we do a lot of what I call everything but the finish. So we do it's it's French Rindor, it's wrestling, yeah, and they're training and they're defending and they they're lifting and they're off balancing. And if someone falls down, we just allow them to fall down. Yeah, but we're not trying to actively. And we get a lot of reps of that um in the all-levels classes. And it seems to have, you know, it seems to have improved the important parts of wrestling um and kept our injury rate, you know, pretty low. I don't know if it's developing the same level of wrestling skill they would if they were just going, you know, live to the finish, but I think we'd have more catastrophic injuries.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Yeah, I mean, we we have some pretty high-level wrestlers at our club and in Minnesota from from uh both collegiate and um high school wrestling here, you know, multiple times one of the multiple time state champions here listens to my listens to me blather on about these coaching ideas that we are all focusing in on. And and he's he's like, Yeah, you know, when I I just would sometimes spend 45 minutes of just low wrestling with my coach, and he was like, That's when I got really good. And and I think he's describing essentially what you're saying, which it's a lot of catch and release and just yeah, not slamming and landing on the guy so many times, so you're getting just cranked on and you're you wake up the next morning and you can't train. I mean, I mean, this is the paradox in martial arts, is we're trying to do something to hurt the other person, and if we hurt them, they can't train the next day. And if we're not we're doing something to hurt them and they're not being hurt, is what we're doing actually functional, right? So we have to Don't break your toys. Yeah, we have to figure that out somehow, right? And and uh, you know, I think as we've all experienced, the more ecological, for lack of a better adjective, we've become, the more skilled, and I think the closer we are to solving that paradox. But uh, there's no like 100% perfect answer to that paradox.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

I I use the analogy, um, especially in my earlier classes where I'm trying to get people to understand sort of how to do this, uh, of kids playing. And and if you take a bunch of kids and you just put them outside, they will start playing. And as they're playing, they will start to add their own constraints, their own rules, they will, they will create this game. But if one of the kids is trying to win too hard, then the next day they don't invite him back. And so I I tell I tell my beginner students that when we're doing these games, when we're playing, make sure that your partner wants to invite you back. And if the next day they don't want to train with you again, then you should probably think about you know your behavior.

unknown 14:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

The one I use is like, hey, it's like when you're playing a pickup game of volleyball with your family on the 4th of July, or you're playing a board game at Thanksgiving. And then of course there's someone who's like, man, my family kills on those games. So but yeah, that that playful attitude is that's where that's where all the middle learning, you know, you get in that flow state and you're just having fun. I mean, what the other one I use is like what do the baby uh wolves or baby dogs do when they're when they're trying to uh learn how to kill animals, right?

SPEAKER_04 15:13

They wrestle.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

They just they nip, they bite, they wrestle, and and one of them goes too hard, and then he gets ignored for a bit, but then he's allowed back in and and they play a bit. And you know, I don't know what you guys do, but I I try to like sometimes talk about the science with the people that with your do you guys talk with your with your athletes at all about the the theoretical basis of coaching ever?

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Only if I want to see some glazed eyes or eyes rolling backwards. I might be on my delivery, but I I do less and less of that now. Or if I do it's uh it's it's just in everyday speak.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

Yeah, I've gotten a lot less too, but I still I feel like sometimes I have to justify myself, and I'm in a different realm than you guys because you know it's I'm like the second in command, I guess, basically, or third in command. Um but sometimes I'll use it, I'll I'll try to kind of slip it in there with an analogy, and I have this riff on on Trevor Ragan where it's like, you know, if you have a pack of wolves, I have a pack of wolves, you take your pack of wolves to the zoo, you guys practice killing animals, uh which are stuffed animals at the zoo. I've taken my pack of wolves out into the woods, and we're gonna start with small game, and then we're gonna move up to medium, and then we're gonna move up to big. Which one's gonna be better at killing animals in the long run? Right? And I think that's a really great analogy for thinking about aliveness and and really helping people understand how, yeah, you could do something on stuffed animals, but clearly, if you go, even a five-year-old will tell you if you go and you work on killing mice in the woods, you're and then you go to beavers and raccoons, you're eventually gonna be able to kill a deer. And you know, I think that really helps uh people see like why what we're you know, the usefulness in failure in practice and and why having a little bit of struggle in practice is actually gonna make you better than just getting answers and repeating it a bunch of times.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Yeah, I don't uh I I the only as far as I'll go is I'll just let we'll talk about the fact that, you know, especially like after our practice, that you know, that we we're doing what we do. Like everything is geared towards like doing what we do, that we spend our time. And so, and my guys all know exactly what they're in for and know exactly why you know why we do what we do. Some of them listen to the podcast, some of them taking my coaching course, um, and my coaching course has some material on this. Um, some of them coach for me. So now some of them engage me afterwards and want to have discussion about this, and I'm happy to do it because I'm I'm always trying to deliver this message without jargon, without blazing eyes, without confusion. Yeah. And it's it's tough. I I recently um one of my former students, uh who he's a firefighter, still a good friend, was asking me some questions. And he he just I couldn't bridge the gap between what he was what he believed was right and why, and the framework that we're using in writing. I'm much better verbally, even though I'm I think I'm a decent writer. In writing, he was just like, this is just, he said, this is just it's too much, too many words. And I said, all right, I have to get better at that.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

Yeah. Yeah, it's a challenge. I mean, I've I've spent a lot of time talking to Sean Mishka up here about um his interactions with people at the in professional sports, specifically NFL and and uh, you know, like we were talking about in the chat with the first principles. I I think that a lot of people are just you know, they live in the matrix and we don't. And it's really hard for people who've been stuck in the matrix for that long. You know, they're not you can't just unplug them.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

So it takes time. So then this this brings us back. So let me, if I may, for a second. So last week I was um I was at a thing with a bunch of the best strength and edition coaches from of collegiate sports, right? All the and I was lucky enough at a at a VIP dinner the night before, I was sitting with the strength and edition coaches from a major SEC college. And they're known for being like really good at at this thing. And we were talking, and I said, Well, what's your like what's your biggest what's your biggest problem? What's your biggest pain point? And they said, basically, getting the work in the in the weight room and this and and the skill training, the technique training to show up in the performance environment. There's a gap there. And so I was I was like, here we go. And the what I posed to them, because I didn't want to jargon, I didn't want to talk about it. What I posed to them was, what if you are creating the gap because of the direction of the that you are building this? So what if getting them faster and stronger than teaching them technique creates the gap? And what if, and so I would say to them, what if we use the performance environment scale down to teach the technique? And it was like they had never even thought that that was a possibility. And then they started, you know, they started saying, well, you know, we have to teach them that ever to do this, or we have to teach them to do that, and we have to teach them. I said, why? Like, why do you have to teach them all to move like to do the spotwork steps together? Why can't that self-organize as part of the sport? Yeah. And and they were just like they had never thought that that this could be done in a in a different way.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Yeah, I think you guys mentioned Jonathan Haidt earlier, and and he has that um book, The Righteous Mind, and he talks about the moral foundations theory. And one of those moral foundations is this idea that people have different uh levels of deference to authority and and then um being like sort of subversive. And I think when we were thinking about like the broader socio-cultural constraints that we exist in, that's real. And a lot of people they want like a dominant leader to like give them the answer and have all the answers, and for them to be like, as Greg Sauter said, like a domesticated dog. And they just want to be trained. And it's really hard when you when that's the world you exist in to see that the athlete should is really in the center of the decision-making process, and they are the ones that have to learn how to solve movement problems and be out there doing it because the whole, you know, everything you've ever heard your life is muscle memory and um repetition and just get more reps. And um so yeah, it's like like I said, just like you're peeling back the matrix. Like they, it's you know, or as as we used to hear back in the day, it's uh uh you got shit and concrete in your head, and we're gonna remove the shit's concrete and give you a brain transplant, and we're gonna plant new seeds. Like it's gonna take a while for that to kind of shift. Um so yeah, but I mean it's I mean it's interesting, but um yeah, strength and conditioning I am not well versed in, and and uh I'm really I'd be really interested to hear more uh how Sean. I've tried to get it out of him, how he designs his practices for football players. And he tells me, but uh I'll be excited at the Sport Movement Scale Conference to see his session and see what kind of stuff he does for S and C.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Well, the the strength and the strengthening addition component, the guys that I was sitting with, they're really good at bridging the gap between the weight room and the field when it comes to these the athletic attributes, let's say. Sure. So because they they do have a middle piece between the tr the weight room and the field where they can functionalize. And they they talk about covering ground and carrying and changing levels as basically the the missing ingredient between the weight room and the field. So they're really good at that. And I think they're they've proven that they're some of the best in that in the world. But the the gap between technical training and technique training and a performance environment, they they could see it, they knew it existed. They knew that they they would teach some guy how to do X, Y, Z, and they could do those reps, and then in the scrimmage, they were lost. And that gap, that skills gap, or whatever we want to call it, that you were talking about before, I think is self-created. Because that that middle, I don't think that that middle piece. So I the in my organization, we used to have the I method. Introduction, isolation, integration. And the more I think about it, the more I wonder if that the isolation phase is almost solving a problem that wouldn't exist if we didn't start with the intro phase.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Yeah, yeah. I I've heard you guys talk about that for years, and it was fascinating to me when I first heard about it. And and um uh and I think I heard you say this before, but the the order in which you do that isolation phase, I think, is important. I think a lot of coaches start with a pro start with the problem they have or and then they start solving it, and they start with their own interest. And the people can't connect explicit informational verbal uh analysis of movement problems that they first haven't experienced a lot. Like one of our best grapplers um studied, ended up after training for many years, got really into the John Danaher instructionals, and you know, at that point he could watch it once, and he could he had suffered through trying to solve this, you know, finishing a yield hook or whatever so many times that when he saw John explain it, it stuck. And so I think you think about those isolated, decontextualized things um like that, they need to have the context first. And so I think the order in which that happens, whether it's in the middle or at the end, is better than just starting with the all the information. So I don't know if that helps, but that's the way I I see it. And and and it's even better, I think, as you guys would agree, that it happens when they ask.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

How much of that stickiness do you attribute to like uh appeal to authority in the sense that it was Danahar? It's interesting to say Danahar, right? Yeah, yeah. There's probably hundreds thousand variations of the heel hook by a bunch of unknown people. But if Danahar tells you something, there's a stickiness. And I often feel you know, people go to seminars and talk, well, this this changed my game, and that's well, yeah, maybe it changed your game. Yeah, there's a a receptiveness to whoever's delivering the message, right? 100%, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

And it's just real, it's just nature.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Yeah, can't be a prophet in your own land, we say. Like will Greg or I or or Nat will give somebody a part of the answer and and then they'll get it, and then you know, some time will go by and they'll you know, they won't, and then they'll do it a little bit and then they won't do it for a while, and then they'll see it on a video somewhere and they'll be like, yeah, or they'll learn it, they'll go take a class when they're on vacation, and they'll be like, Yeah, check out this thing I learned. And we're like, Yeah, we told you that two years ago.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Um proximity proximity bias is is always how I word it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

The brain is just really not it's like driving to work in the same, you forget what the everything that happens when you drive to work in the same path every day, and then when you drive a different way, like it's the variability and the novelty of it sticks. So I think I think that's one of the things we're trying to increase with using the ecological approach is that novelty effect. Um and I guess one question I'd have for you guys is uh uh do you ever ex have you experienced that you're doing and I think one of the guys was in the chat with this the other day, last night, even, about like we're kind of at the end of novelty, basically. And I I don't know, I don't know the answer, but um what I worry about is sometimes that we're just we're doing so much novelty that it's no longer novel. We've kind of hit the end of the juice. And I don't know, what do you guys think?

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Well, the the very first the very first conversation I had with Greg when we were introduced, I think four years ago or something, he was blathering on about novelty. Greg does this a lot, right? He'll be talking about something, and I think uh I think I know what he's talking about, and then six months later ago, that's what he was talking about. And he was talking about novelty. And so your point is, are we putting so much novelty in that there's no novelty left? Yeah, I would suggest that's that's that's the goal. Yeah, true. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

I think the way we're immune to novelty. Right, but I think we're we're having a I think novelty almost like everything else needs to be defined because every rep is novel, right? And so how much of that do we have to build into the games? Like, do we need an infinite number of games so they see a different game every day? And I don't think so. I think we play the same, pretty much the same four or five games, but every time they're with a different partner, every time they come in, or every time we we describe it differently, it's a little bit different. And it's enough different that when they move through the room and play this game with four or five different people, that's enough novelty.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Um you've been talking about that, right? Again, the the the the variation in the room is provided mobile and heavy heavy lesson.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Right. And by and but variation is even, I think it's more than just partners and people. I think if you did the same drill Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, it will be different every time because you describe it differently, because the partners are different, because the day is different, everything's different. So if we drill down to what we think are, I don't want to use the word first principles, I hate that. If we drill down to what are the important things that we want our students drilling over and over and over, then we're only going to come up with three or five different things. And so we're just trying to come up with ways to keep them engaged on those three to five things. And there's only so much width there.

SPEAKER_03 28:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

I think the depth, the variability of the depth is is infinite.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Yeah, I think a lot of it's the practice partners themselves. Yeah. Like I I don't know if Scotty said this once, but I I I think it was you, Scott, but it's like you're you are your best coach, your second best coach is actually your training partners, and then we are like basically in third place. Right?

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Right. I think Rob, I think Rob Gray said something like, Your best piece of training equipment is your partner.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that's the the real keeping people engaged is the is the group, you know, which it which is the synergy of the the coach and the training partners and the vibe in the room.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

So but Andy, um, we probably should have opened up with this, but you've been at the academy for over 30 years, yeah. Um coaching alongside uh coach Greg Nelson. Uh you have uh background in philosophy. Have you always uh have you and and now you're you know doing your best to be in the eco space and whatnot, as we all are. Yeah. Was there always a tendency, because you're like philosophy, background, that always kind of thinking different ways and thinking a bit more deeply about the sport? How how did you come across all this? And did it just immediately make immediate sense or was it a subtle shift for you?

SPEAKER_02 29:27

It made immediate sense for me. I'm pretty subversive, I'm pretty unathletic, and so I can't ever rely on athleticism. So I've always been tr really intensely focused on skill myself, and I have some core memories early on of doing constraints-led approach training and making incredibly fast improvements in my own skill. Um so uh yeah, like as soon as I heard about it, I was I was doing my best to make my practices you know as closely aligned with the principles that I could. So yeah, it was it was pretty immediate for me. Uh and also, you know, like the DNA of the academy is she kundo, where Rick, we Greg and I, Greg was Rick Faye's training partner at Rick Fay, is one of Grudan's oldest students. Um, and I started with with Rick Faye as well and and Greg. And so the JKD philosophy and the way Grudan has communicated to his students and and eventually to me basically is that has that sort of ecological um approach kind of embedded in it. So it was pretty it was pretty quick for me. It wasn't it wasn't that hard for me to see. Um but I'm I'm kind of a know-it-all too, and so I liked having the superiority of the knowledge. And I liked kind of razzing uh Greg and and some of the other coaches with like, hey, I got this new, I got this new secret advanced way of getting people good fast, and and uh I kind of pissed them off a little bit on purpose that and and they knew that I was doing it, but they were still they still took the bait quite often. And honestly, I probably didn't I probably did uh mess up uh communicating it to Greg and all the other coaches. So but I knew it was gonna be a hard, it's a hard, you know, like it's the matrix, man. Like it's really hard. But Greg has kind of two sides. He's got this athletic background in gymnastics and wrestling where it's been you know repetition and drilling and perfect mechanics and then the JKD. So it's you know, he sees, you know, he's he sees it, I think, more now better. I think in the past you know few months I've been doing a better job of trying to communicate the ideas, but um, but for me it was quick, man.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

So I'm gonna push back. I'm gonna push back on something. Yeah. Because not about Greg and I had a couple of these conversations sort of years ago. I don't think Diddy could be. Yeah, Greg Nelson. Greg Nelson. I'm sorry, yeah, Greg Nelson. Um, who I I think is just an amazing human being. Just let's just get that out of the way. And and I was lucky enough to spend time with him in some of the things that we did and and seminars and things like that. And I've always tried to pick his brain because I saw him walking this very interesting line where some of what I saw him do in some of his classes and some of his seminars were just that old, very old school repetition. Here are four variations, let's drill them, drill them, drill them. And then when he would lay out what his their weekly practice schedule would look like in the academy, it was all scoring. Yes. Monday we do wall scoring, Tuesday we do bridge score. And I was like, where does the Jeep Kondo trapping, which is the deadest of the dead, where does that fit in? You know, and and I know I remember he would say, well, that stuff is for the JKD nerds. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

But he and I are JKD nerds.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Yes. But I also came up through the same exact thing. But I never saw to me the G-Kundo world, and and this is not a knock on Dan and Asanto or anyone else, was a cosplay world. Oh, yeah. There was no ecological approach, there was no aliveness, it was all about collecting and not about fighting. And so that's that's why when Thornton, even I'll go back one step. I used to train with Paul Vunak a lot. He was one of Dan and Asanto's you know, main students. And there was, he separated out these two streams. One he called self-perfection, which is all the Jikundo pattern type stuff, yeah, dead pattern type stuff. And the other was self-reservation, which was fighting. And his ratios and what I saw in the Jikundo world was like 10% fighting and 90% everything else. And I saw even less of that from well, if we went to a Danny Asanto seminar, it was 100% dead. Yeah. Um and so I think for you to get where you've gotten and Greg to get where you've gotten, that's the influence of being around combat athletes. Yeah. I think without that, and myself, without Thornton, without combat sports, without all those things, I don't know if we ever get to where we are now.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Yeah, I think that the thing here really is that like back in the day, um, I think a lot of these guys who ran schools, there was sort of two, there was the the I mean, martial arts business in America goes back to joon ri and the you know, the McDojo kind of approach of uh giving kids belts, giving adults belts, and and um taking a lot of the combat out of it. And you know, these guys are all trying to be professional martial artists in a in a time when there was not the UFC, it was the yellow pages, and there were sometimes you know challenge matches, and and Brunak was was creating his own challenge matches, uh going to the bar with his mouthpiece and and starting literal fights to test out his martial arts. Um so I think the history, a lot of that goes back to like they're trying to run a business, and it's it's you know, that was the best way they knew how is to teach techniques and patterns, and and probably this there was a guy on um on combat learning with Josh Peacock from Spain, I believe, who who I think tied some of the history to Japan to when the the samurai all lost their jobs and the trainers wanted to continue doing what they were doing, and they started sort of systematizing and organizing techniques. And you know, at the end of the day, all this stuff just goes back to people trying to spar and beat people up. But when you were talking about our gym, yeah. Like when I started hearing about the ecological approach, there was a set of us who just got together every day at 11 and we would roll and we would get together at four and spar. And some of the guys did more drilling, but a lot of the best guys never drilled anything. And they were the ones that were beating, they were the mad enforcers beating everyone up. So when I started hearing about this, and I had never really drilled, and and one of my main guys that I partner with is he's a 10-time black belt IBGJF masters world champion now. The guy's barely ever drilled anything. And so when I started hearing about this, I'm like, oh, wait a minute, this is making a lot of sense. But you know, back to what we're talking about, Greg, Dan, like they're trying to attract the masses and they want to change people's lives and make people's lives better. And these are the best tools that they have, and also they want to reflect loyalty to the people that helped them. And they want that, because they want that from their students as well. And I think so the vehicle of they're using those methods as a vehicle to develop that strong bond and in the team and have that sense of loyalty amongst the students to each other and then to them. And because they're trying to keep the doors open and the lights on, and I, you know, that's their that's really I think where the where I think we get a lot of friction now. Like you're with Matt, like you have with Matt Thornton, like where he's trying to understand what you're saying, and you know, we're all trying to run schools and have a lot of students and have a room. And I mean, this was the thing in the paper that I think was some of the subtext was I want the you know, the soccer mom and the lawyer and the teenager and the MMA fighter to be able to be in the same practice room. And obviously they can't all be partners, but we want them to all be there and get the best experience that they can. And and I think what I would argue, and I think you guys would agree, is that done right, we the ecological approach and the constraints that approach is that methodology. Uh, done wrong, you're gonna mess it up. You know, it's it can go horribly wrong too. So you have to be a better coach. You have to have, you know, you have to, as as someone used to tell us back in the day, you have to be like a lifeguard. You have to be even a better lifeguard now and and pay closer attention to the practice activities you design. Whereas with the traditional approach, you could just go on YouTube and copy what Danah says and show up and talk for 20 minutes and everybody feels good, you know. But I mean, there's a huge gap between I taught it and and they actually learned it. And I, you know, I'll I'll I'll often try to sell people on this, like how much have you how much have you forgotten versus how much you've learned in martial arts or anything? And I think even schools are doing a terrible job at teaching because they're basing, you know, this idea on how people learn in this in this idea of cognitive psychology. And I don't want to talk bad about cognitive psychology necessarily, but I I love what what um Julian Blau says about the analogy with uh Newtonian physics and quantum mechanics and and how they still use Newtonian physics sometimes, but like this newer theory has kind of taken over it, and and um so I think that really helps people see like what we're talking about, anyways.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

Well, Newtonian physics is what will affect all of us every day in our lives, it's what we see, right? It's it's and so we don't want to who said recently we don't want to destroy motivation with information. Yeah, yeah, that's real. And so if someone's like, you know, they want to learn how a ball flies, then you just give them Newtonian mechanics. If you start talking about quantum physics, then they just they're like, what the hell is that to do with a ball flying? Yeah, yeah. Um have you noticed that Daniver's language is like a thousand words to say attention or intention or just spar or like have you noticed that?

SPEAKER_02 39:09

Yeah, and and I have now he's incredibly popular, and he and I'm gonna he is probably one of the best coaches in the world. For sure. And and uh for a set of people, and I I first took a class with him in 2009, so I had heard about him way, way back in the day, and I made Greg Gelson come with me, and there's like a hundred people in there, and we had heard from Dave Camarillo that, like, you know, and Dave Dave Camarillo is a sick judo and jujitsu black belt, like highly skilled guy, and he was like, Yeah, but you guys gotta go to John Danaher and ask about leg locks because there's levels to this. And we're like, okay. So we show up, he comes out, he talks for like a minute, and sits down and does not walk around and correct anyone. And he came over and introduced himself to Greg because he knew Greg, but uh and he helped us a bit, but for the most part, he did not correct anyone, and his demonstrations were super, super short, but highly um specific about what both people should be doing. And I it took me a long time to really understand like why he took that approach. But I think what you see on the videos and the Instagram posts is in part marketing. And I mean, people want these really intricate, long-winded eight diagram forms that they can memorize and then play like a video game on the white belt who and then they can tell teach the white belt. You know, it it feels good, I think, to have this set of secrets that other people don't have and feel like that's the answer. You know, a lot of us are people that were were skinny nerds that were bullied in high school, and now you get into jujitsu, and you can you can use that um to get a sense of control. But uh when he actually teaches, it's a lot different, it's a lot more succinct. And uh I even saw a video not too long ago where he was using a CLA style game.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

So yeah, well that's my point. Like it he is going to end up being the the the head of the ecological approach at some point.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Maybe because he already has I do sense a drift.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Yeah. Um Dave, just an aside, when Farr fought in uh when Farz fought in T in the tough finale, afterwards we stayed in Vegas and we were just hanging out and training, and Randy Kotor was fighting that week, and we were good friends with Randy and Rob Folis. And um, there was a guy in the cage, there was a black belt in the cage just moving around with with some of his students and stuff. And Rory's Rory, probably a pro bowl at that point, was like, do you think he would roll with me if I asked him? And I said, Well, you never know. And we didn't come from a traditional world, so Rory went to the cage and was like, Hey, can we do you want to roll? You want to move around a little bit? Because everyone was rolling at that point. And so the guy said yes, but I could tell in his body language that he didn't like being asked to train by somebody he didn't know. So I had never seen someone do so many flying attacks in my life before. He just killed Rory. I think he did a flying arm bar, then a flying triangle, then some kind of flying fucking jot sweep. I don't know what the hell it was. Rory just, it was like two minutes. Rory got attacked three times comparisonly, left the cage, and was so dejected. We find out later it's Camarillo. Yeah. You know, who who trained all this jujitsu, I guess, in house place, which is like that's a place where you know you just kill everybody. Yeah. And I and and I was I was like, yeah, yeah. Years later we realized what the hell had happened, but it took a while to figure out what the hell had happened.

SPEAKER_03 42:32

Yeah, he's sick, man. He's sick.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Yeah. He's not a works coach. He was mean back then, too.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Oh yeah. He when he first came to RGM, he was like 150 pounds, and and uh he had just gotten his black belt. And you know, our guys are decent. I think they're decent, you know. And they're big, you know. Like some of the guys are like one night, he's arm locking them like in 45 seconds. And I remember it was like a Friday night, and they're all just sitting there like heads here, like, what happened? Yeah, you know, dude was sick, man. I'm sure he still is.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

I want to talk about a couple of fights. And the first one I never even saw, but I know you have some thoughts on it.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

Oh, I have thoughts on it. I didn't see it. I have questions. Because a bunch of my students asked me, like, is this because his style was so awkward? And without knowing, I would make I have three three hypotheses. One, Uzek just did not give a shit. Like he didn't prepare for this. I saw a lot of footage of him fucking around and training. He looked softer, he he just everything leading up to the flight just looked different to me. Like he was taking this like a joke. And then he got in there with a very large man who had a good strategy and was laying on him. And I think he just never got into the flight. The flip side is did he prepare and he was just showing us. Style that he could not solve over that short amount of time. And it's probably the answer's probably somewhere in between.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

That's interesting. I asked uh Pat Berry once about training in Holland. So I I didn't see the fight, but they spar pretty hard in the Netherlands. And Pat I asked Pat about that. He's like I'm like, are you get concussed every day? And he was like, well, some people do, but they quit. But really, you got to get really good at avoiding the damage because it's it's really damaging to spar like that. And so the people that stick around get really good at avoiding the damage. So I would suspect that Rico, because he's from the Netherlands, has a has a good ability to adapt like that to avoid big damage. And and again, I didn't see the fight, but I would suspect that that might be part of it. That he is because he sparred so much, he's um with probably really big Dutch guys that he developed that that skill, that skill adaptation.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

What do you think, Scotty?

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Well, I only saw the highlights, and I was quick to jump to it because it fits my narrative, right? There was probably uh uh a novelty there. I did see from the highlights, you know, uh Rico is kind of moving kind of odd and clumsily and plodding forward and stuff. And I mean I've said this about Lomachenko too, you know, Lomachenko can seems to have his greater struggles against other lefties and whatnot, and I think it's just uh a film a familiarity issue. But I don't know. It could be all the other things.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Yeah, exactly. And so, like everything, it's a complex system. I I don't think we can probably isolate any one variable. Lomachenko also had harder time with lefties that later when his athleticism started to fade, and Uztik is reaching that point where you know the mileage and the tread on the tires, especially fighting a couple weight classes high, have to be taking a bit of a toll on him. Um and so yeah, I don't think we can necessarily isolate um I I think he was I think he was losing the fight, not badly, but I think he was losing the fight at that point, and um the stoppage was suspect the bell rang. So I would like to see a rematch because I think he takes a rematch seriously because it's damaging to his legacy, um, and he will train for it. And so will he bring in a couple guys that move like that? Will he be in better shape? Will he do more rounds? And then I'd like to see what it looks like. Because it's the same thing. Like Connor looked good against Mayweather for a few rounds because Mayweather probably just didn't train for that. You know, Fury looked horrible versus Engano, who just physically looked horrible because he probably didn't train for it. Um But here's the here's the question. So my guys are all geeked up now about like if I does boxing and gets in there with one of these, you know, and his weight classes have very high-level guys, you know. And I said his MMA style is so traditionally boxing that he will just he will get destroyed if he faces, you know, anyone in there in their boxing prime.

SPEAKER_03 46:58

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

Because he's not a novel like if if if Rico was novel, if Connor was novel and Ghanu's novel, Tapori is not novel.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

So you're saying almost his box his boxing is too boxy-ish.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Yeah, he's but it's not high level. Right. Taporia's boxing in MMA is high level, his striking is high level in MMA because he will occasionally kick, he will occasionally take down. But it's not boxing level boxing. You know, I think Josh Van is is a better boxer in MMA than than Taporea. Not but it doesn't matter because we're doing MMA. But I think if you put Taporea in a ring and he boxes a boxer, he'll get chewed up.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

I mean, that's been my experience training with pro boxers and a lot of our fighters' experience training with pro boxers is we we all get chewed up. We're you know, we're punching at ghosts and just getting counterpunched six times to zero.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

I mean it has to be easier, it has to be easier to remove layers of complexity for like for the than it is to add. So a boxer could never come to MMA and survive.

SPEAKER_00 48:05

No.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

But a striker who's used to strikes being thrown at them, like you said about Rico, has the the ability to survive a bit. I just thought Ustik could have, you know, should have been taking his body apart, should have been it's just he didn't look like I think against another boxer he would have lost that fight badly. That the Usak that showed up in the ring that night. I don't think that it was necessarily Rico's novelty as much as that was one of those nights I think if he had fought, you know, Anthony Joshua or someone, he would have still lost it. But I could be wrong.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

I want to defend the MMA guys a little bit too, because you hear this all the time that MMA fighters are striking sucks and it and and it's it's shitty compared to boxing. But I'm like, well, of course it's gonna look shitty to boxing. The degrees of freedom are enormous compared to boxing.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's not the same. Even though it looks the same in isolation, it's not the same. You know, it it's it's just is uh is there any other sport we expect people like would we argue, you know, that ping the ping pong player sucks at tennis?

SPEAKER_02 49:04

Yeah, or baseball and cricket, you know, or soccer and futsal, or you know, I don't know. Ru rugby and football.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Yep, yeah. Why do we do this? I want to bring the the back to more of the local fights, and um I've had some mixed results again last couple of weekends. Um Andy, your boy Dallin Jones. Yeah. Well first of all, what a terrific young man. The the sportsmanship and the character he showed after his fight, I was really impressed. We went against one of our guys, Eric. It was a good fight, it was five rounds. Uh uh, a thousand apologies. Eric missed weight by a couple of pounds, and we're embarrassed by that. But anyway, it was a good fight. I was I was it was a very fair decision. Um a guy, Eric, just and we knew Dallin was you know extremely explosive. Um because we didn't we fought your guy the last time Daylon fought too, right?

SPEAKER_02 49:50

Or he's kind of your guy? Your guy knocked out, he got knocked out by Milwaukee.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

No, no, no, no. That was um he's Curvito. No, no, no, that was um Gabe Gabe Pugh from Ronan Fitness. Oh Ronan, that's right, that's right. Okay. Yeah, he's Ronin Puritan. Okay, anyways, yeah, Daylon. And Dallin was Dallin was putting heat on him and then got clipped with a counter. But uh anyway, very impressive young man. Um but Eric couldn't quite pull the trigger and it keeps bringing me back. I'm thinking, is is there a passivity in sometimes the way we train in the lightness? And it's uh I I've always said, 'cause I'm not suggesting at all that it Dallin is a brawler, not at all. But it's a problem I've never I'm I'm struggling, uh I'm struggling to solve at amateur level, right? Just fighting down and going for it. I feel like I took a guy up um for a debut kickboxing fight last week, and he fought a guy, MMA fighter had some kickboxing a guy with 12 fights. Um, and it was my guy, Sully's debut, and he looked fantastic. He was violent, he was aggressive, he was responsible, he he he didn't fold, and it was a terrific expression and aggression. But they both come from this. So again, I'm getting these mixed results. Yeah, it was one way or the other.

SPEAKER_02 50:55

There's no these are just anecdotes. I don't think that we have the exact answer. But I've been listening to your podcast from the beginning and and following your journey from afar, and I agree with you. I think that keeping it on the lighter side and keeping the intensity dialed down, like there's no way to fully get an exact fight. I mean, we do these pancreation and and smokers and scrimmages where we get it kind of close, but there's nothing like the full thing. So um, and in in Dalen's case, um, he's really, really naturally gifted with quick twitch muscle fiber. And and uh psychologically too, he's very humble and and focused. Uh he came like that already. Uh but I've actually been encouraging to slow down so he can see more. Uh, because I think when he got he's been clipped a few times in practice and in and in a fight because he's because he's so fast in athletic that he's he's missing seeing sometimes. So it's been I think people like that, it's uh been a kind of a you know a good thing and a bad thing for them. Uh but a hundred percent I think we I like you say concussions are and cuts are non-negotiable in sparring. That's not gonna you're not getting better at getting hit by going super hard and getting hit. Um and and yeah, that's all we can do. And I've feel like I've been seeing, I but I think the same thing that you guys are seeing is that when it comes to performing, the guys are gonna make the the jump from that um technical kind of middle sparring, where we're maybe we're close to the line of too hard, uh are making it just fine. And it's it's my guess, my sense is we are getting more finishes like as we make our training like that more. Um, but also I feel like we're it's sort of taking more risks. And our guys, I feel like we have been on the wrong end or the spectacular end of losing sometimes too, because they're taking more risks, and that's just the game, just not there's we're not in control of everything, and uh you do everything you can, but that's just you know the risk you take.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

Well, maybe that rubbed off because I was actually Dallin surprised me a little, it surprised us a little bit, certainly surprised Eric because I was expecting this fucking whirlwind to come out from the bell, and he had an extremely cautious first round. I would say he gave the first round away. And I don't know because if it was a five round, but I'm like, this is not at all what we were expecting. Um but it was a good fight, and credit to him. Again, the character he showed after that was I'm I'm a Dallas Jones fan.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:19

I think he's gonna go far.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

Yeah, I don't I don't think that's the question we always ask is how how close, how representative can we get, and how how representative do we want to get? Because we can get, I think we can get pretty representative, but do we want it to be there? How often, how much, what's the minimal effective doses like and I don't think there's an answer because everybody's gonna be different. And I I talk about this with sort of like with shark tanks. Florence is still big on shark tanks, and I was saying that I think there are some athletes that that's a benefit to, but there are some athletes who are a detriment to. Yeah, 100%. And a really explosive fighter who paces themselves in a fight, like Tyrone Woodley, who explodes and then paces himself, explodes and paces himself, is going to die in a shark tank. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a confidence killer. Yeah. And so we have to match sort of what they need at different stages to how we train them. And it doesn't shark tanking everyone is not the answer.

SPEAKER_02 54:23

No, well, that's the personal, you know, there's this old wine and new bottles. You know, oh, you guys are just, we always do that. And that's the part where I think I depart and I say, look, no, this is what we're saying is we need to, in an ideal world, we're personalizing and purposefully manipulating the game, the constraint, the drill, whatever you call it. And that's what I think when you understand the principles, that's what the ideal is. We're we're trying to um individualize and and purposefully shape each person according to what their strengths and and weaknesses are. And that's the real secret, and that's the hard part. And that it's a lot harder than just showing up and teaching some stuff you saw on a video.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

One more question about your stable. There's another kid that's coming that's that always cuts your mind. Is it Sukhro? Oh, yeah, yeah, the Tajik kid, yeah. What a fucking animal.

SPEAKER_02 55:15

Yeah. Tell me about him. He's a master of sport in wrestling from Tajikistan. And um he has been with us for a couple years, and he's just the nicest guy ever. He doesn't speak much English. And uh he's one of those incredibly gifted athletes and a lot of obviously a lot of experienced wrestling. And uh yeah, so I don't know, I don't know much about him because I don't he doesn't speak too much English and he actually doesn't train that much.

SPEAKER_03 55:40

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:40

He certainly does his talking in the cage. He does, yeah. Yeah. So I think he's got potential, but he's you know, he's one of those people. It's like he I think he works too. Like he's uh I think he's a refugee from Russia. I'm not 100% sure, but uh but I think he's got a pretty much full-time or more than full-time job, so he gets in when he can and he wants to he wants to make it happen, but he's he's you know, there's that humility from super successful, you know, high-level performers, um, and he's got that. But I don't know if his life is allowing him the time to really dedicate to MMA to make it super far, but maybe it will. But but yeah, he is um he I've seen him with some pretty high-level senior wrestlers, and they're like, who the hell is that guy? So we've had a few of these guys come from the Ukraine and Tajikistan who um are just like the the the level in the sort of the caucus area of grappling. The sort of the enhanc-I I think it's the enhanced expectations of what everybody should be able to do. Uh it's just understood that everyone should have a certain level of grappling and wrestling over there. And you you know, you can see it in in the Dagestanis and the Chechens and the everybody from that sort of Central Asian part of the world. Like their grappling is just super, super good.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

So I don't have any wrestlers, I don't have any Chechnians, I don't have any Africans. Yeah, dude. I got none of that.

SPEAKER_02 56:57

I'm starting at fucking zero with a lot of people. We got the entire world, bro. We got nothing. We got every we got Africans and we got Israelis, we got uh dude, people from Europe. Man, it's it's that's what that's the cool thing about MMA and martial arts. It's just like the whole world just squished into one area.

SPEAKER_01 57:17

I got a bunch of fucking white-bred college kids basically.

SPEAKER_02 57:20

Well you guys are in Athens, though, right? Like I've never been to Athens, but it's a college, it's a college town.

SPEAKER_01 57:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 57:25

Huh.

SPEAKER_01 57:26

Well, you think there'd be some international students that will be interested in martial arts. I mean, I I have never I think this is true. I've never had a high-level wrestler that I've gotten to work with for an extended amount of time in the fight.

SPEAKER_02 57:39

Yeah. Well, I my great I got we have Greg, and I think wrestlers are always like judging based on who they listen to is based on is the what is the guy's wrestling background, wrestling results. Makes sense. So it's you know, I'm really lucky that Greg that we get these people. Because if I was if it was just my gym, I don't know how many uh high-level NCAA guys would be would be in there listening to my stuff. But once now that they once they know me and they hear my what I'm saying, you know, then now they they they'll gravitate towards some of the ideas I'm saying, but um but they're not coming in because I'm like a senior one, purple belt, second place, whatever I PJKF. Right.

SPEAKER_01 58:16

You don't have you don't have the automatic respect. No, they have to give you some time and then they'd be dumb not to respect you. But yeah. You know, you said something before, and I've been racking my brain. You said something about the a group of guys that never drilled, and I was thinking on my my 25 years plus in in MMA and BJJ, I've never drilled. And that was not on purpose, that was because I was the coach. Yeah. And so I have I'm pretty sure this is right in Royal, tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I've done even two or three percent of any drilling, except when I went to a seminar, which was just boring, boring as shit. Um but every time, even when they drilled, I was coaching. Yeah. And the only work I ever got was sparring. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:02

And like you said, like when you were talking to Greg about it, like kind of had these two tracks in the school. We had one for this sort of the hobbyists or regular students, and then there's maybe some middle people who did a little both. And I mean, I think we still have this a little bit. Uh, and then the people that are like serious about competing are just meeting up on their own, sparring and rolling together. So when am I gonna see Greg do an ecological seminar? I don't know. He's still, you know, like he's been teaching seminars for so long, and it's video instructionals, and like there's a market, there's people that want that stuff.

SPEAKER_04 59:33

Right.

SPEAKER_02 59:34

And and um he's he's been telling me, and I haven't taken, you know, we teach at different times, and he's been telling me um that when he teaches jujitsu that he's been doing he's been telling me about the games he's designing and stuff, so I know he's doing it. Um and then we will like the fighters ask me, the the pro guys had you know, wanted me to do one of the practice for their schedule, they wanted me to do one of the practices, and then so he's been sitting with me, and then I'll I'll kind of flip my ideas off on him and we'll kind of go back and forth sometimes. And so we you know, I will kind of co-design some games and stuff together. But I think when he thinks about like regular students and seminars and stuff, he still sees that he wants to meet their demand and meet them where they're at. And so he's and you probably Matt Thornton thinks the same. It's like, well, I this is I already know what I need to do, and I know what they want, and I don't I don't want to mess that up by doing it. But he did tell me, Greg did tell me last year that he went to the CSW conference with Eric Paulson that he had, and and I never I should have followed up with him, but he was like, I'm gonna do some games for that session. And I he probably did, but I never really followed up, and I don't know if he did or not.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:35

I think you teach you teach a pro practice and you teach a foundations class, is that right?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:41

Well, I don't really do foundations anymore. Um, but I teach a pro MMA practice, and then I think you know, I would say that Greg and Nat and I kind of co co-design and like our sparring days where they're doing like the more striking focused and shoot boxing focused stuff where we're we're doing a lot together uh with the fighters too. It's been interesting that to watch that evolve, and I didn't even notice it, and I was blathering on when they were like, Yeah, but listen, like what we're actually doing is what you're saying, so shut up. And I'm like, okay, yeah, he gets it right.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

Um what are some drills? What are some what are some constraints and drills and things you do in the shoot for shoot boxing? I'm always interested in shoot boxing, especially with non-rust stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:24

I teach an intermediate kind of beginner intermediate, and I I want it to be more beginner-friendly, and it's I'm struggling with that. And um, you know, it's it's a complicated mess. There's like 30 coaches, and everybody wants everybody to go to their class. But and and when you know, when George Patterson was alive, he really liked my the practice that I had that was sort of the intermediate beginner level. And he came all the time. And and then when he was there, he would kind of get guys to come, and so it was a lot bigger of a practice. But in that class, um uh to give answer your question, um, I start off uh well, Saturday I started off with no glove, no shin pad technique sparring. And so I just let them do striking with no gloves and no shin pads, and I'm like, listen, you know, don't hurt each other, just spar and I watch them and I'll I'll maybe give them a few cues here and there, but like probably not more than one for one or two guys. And then um for shoot boxing, uh it's now we're gonna put the MMA gloves on, no shin pads, and it's it's um, you know, I think we did one guy shoots and one guy is just defending. And I don't give them a lot of instruction, I just say go ahead and pick up a leg. Uh if you're gonna finish, you have to set him down gently. And uh then I go from there. And then I'll I'll even transition to uh putting the shin pads on and letting them both shoot takedowns. And I'm just like, listen, be careful. And uh over the past um so the concern is is uh for people that are listening, is that people can get cuts when people are shooting in, they can run into an elbow or a knee. And I've only in the past six years of doing it like that, I think I've only had one cut. So um, you know, I think that's more related to having the that the culture like I talked about in the beginning of the podcast today, is is having a good culture. So um yeah, and then but then I'll I'll I I'm trying to watch what's happening, and then I'll try to ask them like what are you guys struggling with, and then I'll start to shape the rules around that um based on what I'm seeing and what they're asking. But you know, like with striking, uh it's and and so-called scrambling, like there's not a lot of uh, I think explicit thought and and information that I can dictate to them that they will then do. They just have to get in that playful space where it's safe and just play a lot and be feel comfortable with each other and have fun doing it. And you know, I'm still I'm still trying to find that sweet spot. I'm not I'm not there at all by any means, but I'm still I'm still gonna keep doing it, I'm still gonna keep trying to figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:51

Um, but I think that's I'm not sure there is I'm not sure there is a sweet spot. There's I it's there. I'm just see, I don't think there is just from the f the sense that every class, every group of people, every drill, yeah, every constraint, every objective will have a different sweet spot.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:08

So I think we all I think we all are at the sweet spot holistically, right? Safe, live training. Isn't that the sweet spot? Safe, live representative training.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:19

Fun, like in in in out of their head and just enjoying it like they should want to be there doing the thing they're doing. And just when that enjoyment and that emotional, like that's like the fourth principle in Rob Gray's book about representative learning design, when that emotional thing is there and you when you hit that, that's where the learning opens up. They're they get down, they're like, man, I felt like the sense of competency was really rising as I was doing these things. And yeah, I got I got hit, I missed that, or whatever, but I saw what I could do to fix it. You know, they're they are their best coach. And and I my job is to help them realize that, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

I think one of the the reasons I went to so I want to ask you if you do any of the non-head contact stuff in in a second, Andy. But when I was in my last gym, and before I was going to open play mode with my partner, um, I actually ran a cardio kickboxing class as part of my last gym. And it was, you know, like mums and that would come in while their kids were in the kids' class. And towards the end, I started dabbling with doing a bit more live stuff, and I thought, okay, just just touch, just hit each other on the shoulders, don't hit because they didn't want to get hit in the face, and they loved it. They loved it. And this is what I've been playing around with for the last five, six years. And for me, it's just it's it's building it, we build the culture through foundations. And uh it just seems absurd to most traditional coaches that you would let someone spar on their first day. And I'm just so far in there, I'm like, why wouldn't you let them spar on the first day? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:40

We had uh I don't know if you guys for that. Yeah. I don't know if you guys know Dave Kovar. Um he's a famous uh karate uh he's a jujitsu black. He's super interesting and and long term martial artist, like just loves the martial arts, and he's been by our gem a few times, and I'm sort of like the Sean Mishka of our gym, and I'm like the skill acquisition specialist. So I'm trying to guide, we have coaches that have been with us for almost as long as me and been you know coaching the way they coach for many years. And I'm I'm trying to steer the ship in this direction now. And so after having listened to you, Scott, for five years, you you know, I've encouraged them to try sparring on the first day. And I would say that a lot of them are fully sold on it and they're doing it. Anyways, Dave Colar was watching, he's like, wow, you guys are having to spar in the first day. He's like, and I I didn't hear him say this, but he said, like, I'm gonna have to go back and and uh think how I can get this into my program. And and uh so it's um I think it's a total, it's really hard for people to, you know, because the word spar I think brings up this idea of somebody actually getting hit and hard. And most of us have had experience with sparring getting hit, but but these uh non-contact, shoulder tag, you know, leg tag games are I think are the perfect introduction to learning how to do actual striking. And and look, we're we're there's a moral question that underlies all this. Like you're teaching someone how to defend themselves. And I feel like there's a duty there to like actually teach them how to defend themselves. And if there's a faster and better way to get them there, we should all be doing it. And I getting getting hit in the head is probably not the right answer to keep people coming back to practice, but understanding the distance and the relationship between a moving body and your body is probably the most foundational skill we can do. And those shoulder tank games are the best, and they're they're fun, and they get people out of their head. If they've been stressed out at work all day and they're here to you know relax and enjoy themselves, then letting them be a kid and just play tag is a great way to do that. So um so so I I don't I do that occasionally in the MMA class that I teach, and I know that some of the foundations coaches are are using some of that. Um but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:54

You know what, you know what? I'll tell you another place that the the chest shoulders has been helpful is if I'll if I design a game where it affords counter punching, but we know that counterpunching is where those guard crashes occur, then because everyone's come up now with with a lot of chest and shoulder work, I can say, okay, I want the counters to be to the chest and the shoulder. And so we could almost mix like a sniper game where one side one side initiates the contact and the other side is trying to counter immediately, and that could afford a car crash, the counter goes chest-shoulder. Now all of a sudden the the person that's initiating can take a little more risk. We can keep it a little safer, but we can keep it much faster. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:43

Now you got in the chat, you guys were talking about the actual um games and drills you do, and I was I hadn't responded or whatever, but but one of the things I thought of that we've tried and and uh I think we get good results is we'll divide the the class into groups and we'll give assignments to each group so one side doesn't know what the other side is doing. And it feels sort of representative, right? Because you're gonna be fighting against a uh the other side that has a game plan and an idea that they're gonna try to interact and you don't know. Have you guys ever um divide done something like that with the groups?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:16

So I'll put um I'll put up post-its on on the wall with like 10 different conditions, let's say. Um stay open or pressure or run or counter fight or just very simple conditions. And I'll say between rounds, I want you to come over. I want you to identify one of these conditions that you want to try. You can't use the same one each time. I want you to identify one of the conditions, and I want you to, that is your character for I'm stealing that. I'm stealing that.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:42

Scott's got the uh the coins or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:46

Oh yeah, Scott's played with a lot of that kind of stuff, which I think is you know awesome. Um I've had them pick out of a hat, like the submission they they are gonna try for that round or that day, um, all kinds of different things. But yeah, I like I like it's a similar idea, Andy. It's just like how can we get them to not know what the other person is doing? And and then at the end of the round, sometimes I'll have them tell each other, like, okay, I think you were playing this game, I think you were playing this game. And and you know, sometimes they identify quickly, but how quickly can they calibrate to both both things? Because I think part of variability is getting them out of their comfort zone. Yes. And so I've been something I've seen in my fighters is their ability after like a first round, like let's say they fight the first round on their back foot. We had this happen recently in a pro fight. My fighter was fighting off his back foot because he's a counterfighter generally, and the other guy was too long and too fast. And so my guy was just getting chewed up, skin. And so when he came back to the round, Rory said, I need you to get on your front foot. Now that's fine for a corner of the study, but most of the time, if that's not their personality, that's wasted. Now your fighters just confused. But we've done a lot of drills where we've asked guys to fight on their back foot, on their front foot, switch from the back foot to the front foot. And so when he said that to him, my guy knew what that game was and immediately was able to make that switch to fighting on his front foot. And and he he started to win, he won a fight. Nice. And so I want I want the guys part of being adaptable is can you fight on your front foot, your back foot? Can you push? Can you pull? Can you counter? Can you go first? And so I like to force them to do those things. And so you know, those are different ways I've I mess with that.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:27

Would you classify that as differential learning or CLA?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:32

I still think it's CLA. Okay. Because I'm constrained to afford something. I see differential learning as messing with the way they normally do something.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:40

Like purposely making it wrong to create stochastic resonance so that they organize around the game that is best for them.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:50

Scotty's like one-legged drills, I see as differential learning.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:53

What what are your one-legged drills, Scotty?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:56

I play a little excuse me. I play a little game with keeps where they both get into their Daniel Sand kind of swan uh stance, and and they've just got to, as long as they're on one foot, they're still in the game. They're just trying to use the push kicks to destabilize the other side. And if the other side two feet hit the floor, they lose, they start again. And it looks fucking awful. But they're starting to get this hip hinge and a sense of balance and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:18

So I think that I feel like I gotta listen to a lot of these people on podcasts critique stuff like that and say, well, that's missing a lot of specifying information when you do it like that. And I had a small debate with Greg Sauders about uh grappling with the racquetballs in your hands, and he doesn't like that. And I do it for my I teach a ghee class once a week, and I sometimes have them warm up with you know holding the racquetballs. And my thing is like they some people are when they're starting off with a ghee, they grip too tightly, and I feel like it releases those degrees of freedom faster. And so I I I don't know, but but I like it all. And I think when we give people a lot of different problems to solve over time, we're just developing this ability, I guess a competence where they've I've like I've adapted to all these things. Like like I have one of those Russian guys at the gym was telling me that when he was a kid and he wanted to join wrestling, the coach made him to show that he could do a backflip first. And you know, what what the hell does a backflip have to do with wrestling really? But but maybe it gives a kid a sense of like I could this felt challenging. Like I couldn't do a backflip, and now I can do a backflip, so now I can take another kid down, and I just need that sense that I could do something difficult or or what seemed and once I start to do more and more challenging and difficult things, then I start to have a stronger sense of delusion or belief that I can I can actually do it, you know, whatever that is.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:35

I don't love the balls in the hands just because I'm worried if they fall, like if they get put on their hands, they're going to fall awkwardly.

unknown 1:13:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:44

So I usually just cue them to keep their hands in mittens. Sure, yeah. I've tried I've done that or like fist. I've had fit just like keep your hand in it, too, but but yeah. But like like you're talking about, like I I did a seminar recently and I was doing a seminar, it was passing and played just a very simple keeping the feet off you game, and everyone was sort of really bent over. And in in the past, I I would have probably said, I need you to keep better posture. But then I realized what the fuck does posture even mean? And so I said, Okay, person on bottom, you can upkick. Now, I don't want you to upkick. I don't want you to upkick your partners in the face. And these like it was a it was a group from white to black and hobbyists and stuff, and they were like horrified. And I'm like, I don't really want you to upkick, but do you understand my point? And all of a sudden people are not bent over because they might get upkicked. And it's just it's I think that it's things like that. The more we can do things like that, so at the yeah, maybe the balls in the hand isn't perfect, but there's a you're looking for an outcome, you're looking to challenge them. Yeah. So what it does it do harm? Yeah. That five-minute round. Like does it do harm?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:50

No. No. I think it's also on it's not going to help as a community as we're trying to get some traction here and spread these ideas that we start saying this game is better than that game, or these games suck and these. Like, I don't think it's unclear to me whether we can do the ecological approach wrong.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:05

I agreed. Yeah, I I mean, and what is it even? You know, there's a theory, and there's two diametrically opposed bounding principles on some to some degree. They they reach a point where it's like it's either this or that. But when it comes to the coaching space or the coaching practice and how you design practice, like, you know, it's the roots, not branches thing back in the day from Rob Gray's uh podcast, where like it there is gonna be these trees as they grow up, there's gonna be a lot of overlapping. And so the practice space itself, there's gonna be some things that we never do, but then there's gonna be these middle things where like we're, you know, depending on what theory you believe in, you're still gonna have some of the same practice um ideas and practice games. And I it's you know, is it a giant opportunity cost? No, it's not. I I don't believe so at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:49

No, and I I mix things up for pragmatic reasons, but talking about the the the roots and the branches, if you're to take the ecological psychology or dynamical system, okay, so ecological dynamics is is extreme, then that's all it is. It's just sparring and slices of sparring. And you know, again, we don't know exactly what effect that particular session has because it's complex and we don't have access to that, we'll never have access to that. But if you take it to its extreme, that's what it's telling us. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:19

Well, I think we all, I mean, I was I'm talking to Coach Hav a couple weeks ago, and you know, I've I'm worried that I'm some we're sometimes not doing enough, but I then I'm watching the results and I'm like, okay, well, uh we're doing well, you know, we're doing well. My one of my R Jiu Jitsu black belts, she just yesterday, two days ago, just won the American Nationals. She's the number two ranked Nogi grappler and masters female black belt in the world. And we know.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:45

We know if we put a bunch of people in the room who are athletic and motivated and get the fuck out of their way, yeah, just then most of the work gets done for us. And then we walk around and we can just nudge them or guide them. Yeah. I I think if you give me a group of black belts and you're like, hey, coach this group of black belts for the next six months, all they're gonna do, I'm gonna talk about intentionality and then they're gonna roll. Yeah. And they will they will certain partners will go harder with certain partners will go easier, certain days they'll go, they will self-adjust a lot of that, and I'll just get out of the way. Because those black belts probably know more about jujitsu than I do.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:22

Yeah. You've used the word nudge quite a bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:25

Um I like nudge. Have you read the book? I have read the book, but that's not where it's coming from. But I I can't think of another word to use to just like gently push them. Yeah. Have have you considered this? Hey, I'd love to see you try this. Start here. Just start, it's all very gentle.

unknown 1:17:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:44

I'm gonna try and use the word nudge a bunch next week when we're together.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:47

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:48

Oh, yeah, it's my skill conference. Exactly. I can't wait to see both of you guys. It's gonna be awesome to be face to face. You're gonna be on crutches, Andy?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:54

Yeah, that'll be my last three days, but but uh I got a couple of the other coaches. Nat, you remember Nat McIntyre? He's coming in and one of the other things. Oh, fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:02

Oh, Nat's Nat's a badass. Yeah, yeah. You will you will be able to defend my double leg on crutches, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:08

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:09

All right. I have to you guys keep going without me. I look forward to hearing what you guys talk about without me. I have to go to a practice.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:14

All right. Okay, we're gonna tie this up now anyway. And I'll see you guys next week.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:19

Yeah, we'll see you next week, Adam.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:20

I see Adam. And then it was two.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:24

And then it was two.

unknown 1:18:26

All right.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:27

I'm sorry you haven't invited you on before, Andy, because uh, and then listen to your interview with Javi last week. Javi's a wonderful communicator and interviewer.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:35

Yeah, I often recommend his podcast to people who are just get started. I think he's does the best job of simplifying. Remember when Tom Stofkin was talking about you have to be able to explain your science, you know, in five minutes or less. I think Javi is one of the guys in the space that does that the best.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:50

So yeah, his presentation from last year is one him and uh the football guy coaching. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Zweifel.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:57

That guy's awesome. Beautiful, right? Yeah. Skipped all the jargon, skipped all the buzzwords. Yeah, just a very engaging presentation.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:03

So yeah, I wish I wish I could do that. I I also occasionally teach a coaching course at the academy, and and um man, I aspire to be able to tell stories like those guys and and um you know communicate like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:16

So the last thing I want to say with with regards to the buy-in and our how we how our roles of as coaches are are changing. I was like just obsessed with getting the games and the skill right and the blah blah blah and all that before, and and my my roles changed. Now I'm purely there. Well, my I'm primarily there for the culture and the support and just keeping my athletes engaged. And what I'm really enjoying, Andy, and you've been doing this a lot longer than me. I'm really I don't actually enjoy the fights that much when they're in the cage. Um, but the lead up, the run-up, just starting to understand my athletes better and connecting with them prior and seeing that they're all very different and they all need some just need to be left alone, some like my the guy I was talking about who had a great performance last week, Sully. I could tell 15 minutes before he's getting hyper excited, and I just felt like we were connected and we're resonated, and I managed to we managed to get you know his anxiety down and change it into excitement, and he went out and had a um a great performance. But at the end of the end, when I went to I was telling him obviously how proud I was of him, but I was and this is gonna sound cheesy and corny as fuck, but I said to him, I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful because I've really no coached him. I've just been alongside him, given him a tip here or there, and I said, Thank you for trusting what we've been doing, because it's been a hard, hard sell. And he's been training his ass off, and he lost 40 pounds for this fight, and yeah, he's fully committed and and and it all came together and it was it was just beautiful. And I don't take any credit for it. Because how can you take credit for a culture when you're only a little part of it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:37

Yeah, it's really satisfying like that. And I'm I'm like you, I really like seeing the growth of amateur fighters from day zero to like having their first fight after you know a year or two or whatever, like and and seeing them go through that experience. With for me, watching George Federson go through that was just it was super, it was awesome to see him go and almost become a pro, right? From from day zero, essentially. And you know, those are the that's those are the moments that make you know doing what we're doing um so uh uh fun and engaging. And you know, we're talking about martial arts business or whatever, but one of our Rory and I'm mentors back in the day said one of the questions you gotta ask yourself as a school as a person who coaches and runs a martial arts business is how do you want your spend of time and and who do you want to be around? And that's a more primal question than you know, how much money do you want to make or how big of champions do you want to have, or anything like you want to spend your time around people that you want to be around and and doing the things you want to do. And and look, you know, like you, I I really enjoy seeing you know jujitsu people too. I like seeing jujitsu people in the beginning. There's great growth. Whereas I feel like my coach Greg, he really likes taking people who are super elite and making them even more elite. And I'm not, I don't, I still don't see myself as that. I probably am. I actually probably am, but I want to be like him, I want to be better at making elite elite. But that's just a project that I'm still working on and trying to get better on.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:57

Yeah. Yeah, me too. Okay, well, Andy, that's uh thank you very much for your time. It's a shame we're kind of get a roll in next week.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:06

Yeah, well dude, we've been like ships passing in the night. Like you've been at the fights, and I've been traveling or whatever, and you've been at the academy, and I came down to see you guys like last summer and you're gym-flooded, and it's just it's been uh you know the world. So we'll get this. We'll hang out next weekend. And I'm still gonna we're still gonna dojo storm you guys someday here.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:22

So please do, please do. Yes. And uh you're always flattering me. Um when you when you talk, I listen, and you've been doing this. I'm a Johnny completely compared to you. So Andy Grand from the Academy, yeah. Check it out. If he talks, listen. All right on. Thanks a lot, bye. All right, yeah, bye bye.