Learning to Fight - Yapping about Scrapping - Episode 32

Learning to Fight Podcast — Conversations in Combat Skill

After a year-long hiatus, the Primal MMA Coaching Podcast is back—Rebranded, and refocused as the Learning to Fight Podcast: Conversations in Combat Skill.

Your hosts are:

Adam Singer — Co-owner and head coach at SBG Athens, BJJ black belt, long-time MMA coach, with years of developing novice to elite level fighters. Student of Matt Thornton and SBG's philosophy of 'aliveness'.
Scott Sievewright — Co-Owner at Primal MKE, MMA skills coach and obsessive student of how humans learn to move and fight. 

Together, we dive deep into the art and science of coaching, training, and skill development in combat sports.
 Expect honest conversations about MMA, striking, grappling, practice design, contemporary research, traditional approaches, ecological dynamics, and the messy realities of learning under pressure.

No gurus. No dogma. Just two coaches trying to understand fighting a little better each week.

Same curiosity. New lens.
Learn how to learn.
Find your own style.
Thrive on the mats—and in the cage.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Tip top form.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Alright, good morning. Early morning for us. Um I'm in tip top today. I'm in tip top form today. Alright. Just a quick of the day, boys. Sure. Before I I forgot to say it last time. That is the last time I want to do a uh three fight analysis or whatever we did with the Connor and Max. Because we're all we're all pontificating and talking about attractors this and affordances that. And then that was a complete clusterfuck. So I'm out of the prediction business.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Wait, but the fight, the fight did not last long enough for any one of us to look dumb.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Like speak to yourself, well, freaky, freaky shit happens, right? I mean, it could have come out and he could have eye poked them and the fight could have been over. I mean, there's all kinds of freaky shit could have happened. I know none of us predicted fucking knee blowout, but still none of us looked that none of us looked that dumb. No, none of us were proven right or wrong. Right. I mean, I noticed we didn't do a post-fight wrap-up because that show wouldn't have lasted long.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Right. We were just talking about it. That DDP wheel that there's someone should have today.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Yeah, I I think we should so I thought it was interesting watching that fight, how the announcers were talking about how and and we agree he his striking looked better, but it makes sense that it looks better when the other person is just a standing still target. And so it it points to how how relational everything is.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

I can't remember watching a DDP fight or many fights, there was such a high high percentage of the the strikes were landed. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. It was uh it was interesting that he didn't finish him. I mean the amount of times he hit him.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Yeah, so is that just is that just Usman is just you know, he he's just a tough old bastard.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Well, having one kind of theory is not quite fleshed out, and I think he was probably perceiving the shots, just not quick enough to get out of the way. Uh, I think when you do see the shots, or you perceive the shots coming, then it is less likely to knock out. Still, I still see can't see that when you watch fighting. It's the shots they don't perceive. I I imagine there's something going on in there with the the neck musculature and everything just bracing for impact. Um so I I don't think that that's not a full theory, I'm just or a full hypothesis. I'm just I I think that's probably what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

No, I I I think that's yeah, I don't think that's a unique idea. I I it's always right. That's the it's the shot you don't see. And I think something I think bracing and I think that they talk about fighters um you know moving with the punches. I think that that's you you can even if you do that a little bit, you could probably take some sting off it. They were, I think it was landing mostly one-twos. And I think one-twos are a little bit harder. You see to knock someone out because you do see them coming. Um, so yeah, I think that's that's a valid hypothesis.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

It's a little while ago, so I'm not completely, you know, I can't remember it as well as clearly as I'd like to, but in just watching that little clip, it also seemed, you know, he was being long, he's being touchy more than like more than Dan Henderson style, where everyone's gonna be the hardest thing he's ever thrown in his entire life, where maybe he'd be more susceptible to the takedown if he really got sat down and really let go. So they were certainly, it was high volume, maybe it wasn't his most powerful. And then, like I said, we talked about it the other day. You can see things and then just be like, oh that's gonna hit me. And then you just like I said, maybe you can move a little bit, take a little bit of punishment.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

So can so can you if if you can you perceive without in like you're perceiving affordances, but for Usman, his affordances were what? Just absorb this, take this. It wasn't defend this. He never made that, he he rarely made a move to even make a defensive motion.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

A lot of head dipping and yeah, bending over.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Yeah. Um, I also I think to your point, Rory, he he did not land a lot of times, or he'd not even throw a lot of times a third shot. Right. And which that's that might be the shot that did knock Usman out, but would have put him off balance because every shot starts to put you more off balance. Like we're having this, I was having this discussion with with one of our fighters the other day, and and he figured that out on his own. He's like, when I throw one, you know, I I can I stay in balance, I stay clean, for lack of a better term. When I throw two, I start to get a little more. And when I throw three or four, by the end of it, I am all off balance. And a good and a good counter puncher can move in and out and and tag me on that. And so he had sort of his own, because he was training with a southpaw that did a really good job moving in and out, and he's like, I keep getting tagged on the count. And I'm like, why? And we just moved around and he's like, okay, I see it. All right, I don't know what you you know, simple as just, you know, don't throw. What do we figure out, Scotty or Rory? An MMA, it's like two is is the average number of shots people throw at a time.

unknown 5:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Considering how many people just throw one constantly watching dude, just throws one strike, one jab, or one big overhand, doesn't even set it up with a jab and things of that nature. There's not a lot of not a lot of combos happening in the actual fight environment. Certainly not the way we would see them in the dressing room or on hand pads, you know, four and five and six. Don't start hand pads. Don't start hand pads today. You know, we don't we don't really see that in in the cage. We we see one or two pop shots dance around, maybe a punch and a leg kick dance around. Yeah, you don't see a lot of that. And then when you do, when you see it done well, you're like, wow, that three-piece landing. You know, because it's always surprised. A three-piece.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

I'd like to see guys viral at the moment. There's a three-piece going viral at the moment from I think it's one championships. Hagar. I think it's uh have you noticed I think it's uh uppercut boy shot low kick. Um and Haggerty gets pieced to it, like all three lands pretty clean, he eats them, but um, it just shows you these little clips go viral when when a when when a three-piece lands, they're not that common.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

No, they're not common. And I I would I I think a higher level fighter can like younger fighters want to land everything they throw, right? And I think when you see boxers or people who spend more time throwing combos at other people, I think that they know that they're not gonna land the first couple things. So they're really more touchy, proby, hit the guard to see what happens and then to land the third one. I think if you try and land one and two, it puts you more off balance if you if you continue that combination.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

I wonder if when we I wonder as well when when we're kind of Monday morning quarterback in our like post hoc stories that when we say, oh, look how he was probing there and touching the guard. I think they were maybe just shots that didn't quite land. I think we maybe spit a little bit more, uh, yeah, flower them up a bit more than they should be, or give them more credit than they should.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Maybe, maybe him in general, but I think as a as a principle, I think that there is a there is something to be said for getting young fighters to, and and it's it's I mean, how do we drill it, obviously? It's all about behavior. How do we get young fighters to play more touchy than wanting to land everything? You know, how do we just change that intentionality a little bit in practice? And we saw it, we saw it with one of our young fighters in his first tie boxing match. He came out after the fight and he was like, I don't know why I was throwing things as hard as I was. And I'm like, I know why you were throwing things as hard as you were, because you were in a fight. He's like, I never do that in practice. I'm like, well, you know, I get it. You're not trying to kill your training partners. I said, so I think for your next fight, that will be that will probably be a less of an attractive thing because you have a little experience, you're not all ramped up. And so in practice, the last month or so, I've just been trying to remind him to be touchier. Now, I'm interested to see if that transfers or not. Or he just goes back in, he's in front of a guy he doesn't know, trying to kill him, and the best response to someone trying to kill you is try and kill them.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

And and the other part we're ignoring here, if it's you know, the relational side of things, if you're preparing for a fighter that has these tendencies, so to speak, how you prepare and how you go in and the information that you're giving them might throw all that off. Yeah, we talked about this with O'Malley and um uh what's his face?

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Marab. That it wasn't that the that the information he was giving Marab was actually the information Marab needed. Because he had trained so much to defend Murab.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Yeah. Almost like self-repelling little, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting thing. And I I because we agree that it's so relational and it's so it's we can't pinpoint it. We can't replicate it next time. We can't go back to the, you know, we can't go back to the laboratory and be like, okay, this happened, now we'll fix it for the next time. Because you're changing one side of the equation. Changing it, change both sides of the equation, actually, right? Because you're you're not gonna be the same, you're not fighting that same guy. Right. So I think we have to be careful trying to fine slice anything and try and overwork anything. So I think for tendencies, because we were just talking about this, for tendencies, for me, I just put them in that in that game a little bit more, you know, just just prioritize the the the reps a little bit more. Um, but I don't know if I don't know how much more than that we can do.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Josh Peacock had a little clip that he shared, and uh it was nice for a show. But I was listening to it, he was talking to Adam Hanover, and he was like, Are you he was asking Adam if once his boxers get a little bit more skilled and experienced and kind of bought into what we're doing, does he kind of loosen all the the constraints, so to speak? And does it just let them kind of smart? Um, and then he said, That's what I do. And when I listened to that, I thought, oof, it kind of sounds almost a little negligent or too hands off. But isn't every time you change a partner that's shaping that's a new whole new set of constraints, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:23

So this is what I was talking to you guys the other night on Wednesday night. You know, I go in with I go in with a very broad idea of of what we're gonna do. And I I usually give them the first 10 minutes of it's called free play. And I I want that that word in their head, and they're just doing whatever they're doing. And I was trying to get them to be creative, and I was saying uh saying that word. And then it struck me that as soon as the intensity goes up, because once we got through that 10 minutes and we started doing some real rounds of sparring, that I don't even know what that word means. But what I realized was if I reframe it so that they understand that each each opponent is not just a new partner, but it's a new problem. And if they want to solve that new problem, then they will have to explore and they will have to be creative. And so to me, that's I agree with you, that's the training effect, the the variability. And maybe this is where you and I differ just slightly. If there's not enough variability, if things look scale, if things look the same, if things then I'll just use a little bit of constraints to nudge them into a little bit of a broader problem space, but or to explore.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Sure, you know, doesn't imply in uh uh doesn't imply in a style on your on your fighters, and I think a lot of gyms do that, doesn't that doesn't that narrow the problem space?

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Yeah, so I don't know what style means. So if if I want more of the people in the room to deal with a archetype, let's say that we just maybe don't have in the room, or they're not exploring, or they're not, then it could be as simple as, hey, I want you to play the role of counter puncher, right? So you don't go until they go. And maybe that's shrinking the problem space for a period of time, but that's what the constraints led approach to me is about. And so it's no different than you asking them to do spinny shit. Right? In a normal in a normal room, they may never see spinny shit.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

That's what we're doing last night, spinny shit. It is not pretty.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

No, it's not pretty, but it's fun. And so I don't think there are a lot of those archetypes that are valuable and most of them over constrained. But maybe you have a room full of guys who just, you know, they've settled into something. Because I do think your room will settle into some patterns because we can't constantly keep adding outside variability. There is a level of variability in the room, but if you have the same 20 guys training with each other, they are different every day. The exchanges are different, but they still sort of settle into patterns. You know, they start to know hey, when I when I train with this guy, here's the here's what I do. When I go with this guy, here's what I do. So I'll just add a little bit to nudge them. And I like, and I've seen very good results. Rory and I have seen very good results where just getting people to do things they're not comfortable with adds another variety. And we've been able to take that and translate that into some fights where a guy is fighting, loses a first round because he's fighting one way, and then he comes back into the corner and we're able to just nudge him into a different game that we've played before. You know, as simple as, hey, I need you to get on your front foot.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Well, I mean, that's the point. You need to have we I would think so. A fighter needs to have options, right? We talk about that all the time. If you only do one thing, then you don't do anything, really.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

So I what I don't know what that means. If you do two things, you don't do anything.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Well, you'd said if you have one quarterback, you don't have any quarterback.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

So No, wait, no, that's not what I say. If you have one quarterback, you have a quarterback. If you have two quarterbacks, you have no quarterbacks.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Okay, then that's what it is. If I go into if I go into office depot and there's one pen on the thing, then I really haven't been able to make a choice. There's only one option. So if I You made a choice. No, but I don't have a choice. I can I need a pen. There's only one. I didn't really make a choice. I just picked up the one that was on the rack of a thousand just one pen. Sounds no, sounds fucking perfect to me. You like that because you can't sit in front of that board with 20 pens and actually make a decision. But if I only have one style of game, if I only can do one thing, like if I can only be on my front foot and that doesn't work for me, then I have to be able to change, just like we do by skill. That's what we call skill. But then you but you have to uh you have to invite that to happen in the room by so you need to have, you need to bring some of that variability into the room, into your practice, so that you can say to someone, hey, I know this is the game you've been playing out there, that's not working for you. I need you to do something else. And if they've never experienced that, if you haven't asked someone to explore and to problem solve on their own, or to have the other side play a game that, again, might not be something they're comfortable with, but we need to see, we need to introduce some of that novelty. Then if we don't do those things, then a person's entire game shuts down when that game doesn't work, when their abilities You just described building skill.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

And I think Scotty, Scotty would much prefer, and I think we all would much prefer that that happened 100% organically. That you had a room where I train with you and you're a pressure fighter. And so I have to solve that problem. And then I train with Scotty and he's a counterfighter, and I have to deal with that problem. And I train with this guy and he's long and touchy, and I train with this guy, and he's open stance, and this guy kicks, and this guy, yeah, in a perfect world, we we would all love that. But if we don't have that perfect world, it's part of our framework, we nudge them into other problem spaces. I do think that that's that that can go too too constrained, over constrained. I think we see that with other coaches who start to fall in love with to the point that they're constraining people into styles, into games. But I like a little role-playing in the in the gym, in the bedroom. So play a little role. And I think that that role playing, I've seen it help guys do things that they're completely uncomfortable with. And I, and you, Scotty, you said this the other day. Struggle is the learning. So if I see a room full of people who are just they're just not struggling, they're going through it, they're just I'll throw a little bit of struggle in there. It's minor. I think there's a limit to how much of that's valuable. And but you know, if I got a guy who's plotting a little bit, then I'm like, hey, get on your. I want to see, you know, I want you to play some karate. Then they know what I'm talking about. They can have some, and it adds a little fun to it also. Playing a different role adds some fun. I think Scotty.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Well, I think I think you get my point, but just to kind of reiterate the the broader point I'm making, uh I think most coaches, and I'll include Miss Earlier's self in this, we're kind of coaching to an ideal, right? We're gonna throw this this way, and when they do this, this is typically what we do, and blah blah blah. So we're we're driving the room towards this ideal, and we're kind of we're we're we're kind of dampening that normally. Um we had a discussion last time we got a little guy in Mo, he's probably five, five, five, five, six, but he'll pick the biggest motherfucker in the room all the time. And he's developed as he's become really good at kind of crocodile walking in, zigzagging, and getting off the center line and closing the distance. And only he could have done that because the whole time he's been at Primal, he's he's had to solve that problem and getting past radio guys. So I ultimately think the style picks the the the fight.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Yeah, form and function. I agree. I agree, but I I I you know Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Um unfortunately form form has taken on a greater importance than than than function every scene.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Yeah, and uh maybe the word form has been perverted a little bit too. What do you mean? I I I think in most other sports form ends up being sort of what the sport selects for. So, like in football, form is what the bodies look like. And in our sport, form ends up being, like you said, what the form looks like. Like how it's expressed, not necessarily. So I think it's perverted a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

So the aesthetics on both sides, the aesthetics of a football player, his his arm length, his hand size.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

That's not his aesthetics, that's his morphology.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

In our sport, it becomes aesthetics. And that's what you always hear the announcers talking about. A guy throws the nice thing, it's this, but if it if it's not that nice thing, then he's this, and they th all these terms, you know, just like if it lands, it's it it was pretty damn good, regardless of what it looks like. If it keeps landing, it doesn't have to look like anything, it's effective. He we they put all these adjectives on guys.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

I send them, I send them to you. I'm like, Jesus Christ, this guy's so this guy's fundamental, but he's not technical. And this guy is technical, but he's not fundamental. And this guy has the basics of his fundamentals technically.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

And I'm like, what the fuck does any of that mean? And it's and someone needs a thesaurus. Can we get a can we just put a thesaurus at the table and come up with some different words other than fundamentally, fundamentally, basically, technically proficient?

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Or it's like when Corey Anderson's beating the shit out of Jeri, it's because he's super technical, and when Jeri's winning, it's because he's chaotic. I'm like, what none of that means anything.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Khalil Roundtree.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

That's what Khalil Roundtree. That's what I meant. Oh yeah, oh Jesus, that's sorry for the racism. Um yeah, these these these words, and they, you know, what they lead to is that's how coaches then speak. And that's how coaches look at their fighters, and then that's how coaches try and build their fighters. Program, you know, program. I mean, we look, we'd all love uh every one of our strikers to just be like smooth and long and slick and all that, but if they're they'll they'll either be that or they won't be that. You can't. I thought there was a period of time where everyone should have their hands up and and just like I could do this and that would be perfect, but that didn't match everybody. Nothing matches everybody. Let them explore until they find what they like to do. What they like to do will be better than what you want them to fucking do. Scott, you talk about that. So is that self-determination theory? What they like playing with. Yeah. Can I tell you just quickly, since I I guess we've gotten into the cranky phase? I put it. Cranky Fridays? Cranky Fridays. I pulled up a video yesterday, which was um I I wish I can't remember anyone's names. The 145 pound champion. What's his name?

unknown 21:07

What the heck?

SPEAKER_00 21:08

The UFC 145er.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

That is Jamie's on it. Jamie's on it.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Come on, come on, Jamie.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

How can we not know the 145 champion? Because I I just woke up with very little software loaded this morning. But we know who it is. Volkanovsky. Yes. So it's a video of Volkanovsky hitting it's a video of Volkanovsky hitting hand pads with Ruffy. You just yeah, you just sent that to me yesterday, I think. And I I wanted to first off, he's uh Ruffy is showing him the combinations that Ruffy likes to use. They don't eat longer, Volkonovsky has a striking style that he has honed over his career that works for him and is very good, very stable. Ruffy does ruffy things, they don't look a And he's like, thanks for the work. And I'm like, holy shit, why the fuck were they not just sparring? What like I don't understand how you could have a fighter that level with you and have him put on hand pads. It just, I wanted to pull my hair out. It seemed like such a lost opportunity. And maybe they maybe they did spar. Maybe people don't put that kind of footage up, obviously. But could you imagine having Ruffy in the room and you're like, hey, can you hold hand pads? Because also, last time I looked, Ruffy's not a world-class pad holder. Not whatever the fuck that means. It just was totally infuriated to me. It was everything I think is wrong sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

We get in real with each other and we we grapple. Right. If Scotty does something, you know, Scotty does something to me, then I might be like, hey, what like how was that? How is that happening? If we put on gloves and did some kickboxing, we're old, we're not going to kill each other, and we're going to dance around and play and have fun and just play tag. And then if something, if he's spamming me with something and I can't seem to figure it out or pick it up, then we might discuss that. But I don't need him to put me through a combination. We're not, you're not if Ruffy showed up silly. If Ruffee showed up at your door, I'd put him be like, let's go smart.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

Don't kill me, dude. I'll be like, hey, don't kill me. Okay, no, it wouldn't be. I wouldn't. You what I wouldn't waste our time or his time. I'd be like, hey, love up with my door.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

I thought he was coming to my house.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Let's go. If he comes, don't let him in your house. But if he comes to the gym on a Tuesday night, I'm not gonna be like, hey, show all these guys what you do. Be like, yeah, okay, show them what you do by putting gloves on. Don't hurt anyone, or I'm gonna you're gonna go out in a body band. And that would be the most enjoyable experience our guys could ever have. Versus, hey, Ruffy's gonna hold hand pads for you and show you his the combos he does, which he doesn't even fucking probably do because you how much of that are you gonna do in the room?

SPEAKER_01 23:53

All that crazy shit, all that it's all athlete shit.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

I mean, I don't I can't remember, I can't remember what they were doing. I don't even want to look at it again.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Yeah, it was it was silly.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

But okay, we don't find that we we don't most people don't find it silly, right? As as as clear by the comments and and the likes and the shares. Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

And I I hate to say a friend of mine is like one of the first. So Volkanovsky says, thanks for the class, right? And then one of my friends, no, I'm not gonna a person I know. I don't know how to say this without someone looking. Someone I know says so epic. And I assume he just means like seeing Volkonovsky and Ruffy together. But but they probably yeah, they probably they might mean that. I gotta see how many comments he got, Scotty, since you just mentioned that. I don't know. You got a hundred over a hundred thousand likes, so who the fuck am I to to say anything? I'm just some asshole.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Now, if they went to the uh if they were shown a uh some grappling training and Ruffy had a grappling dummy idea, and Volk was rolling around the floor with a grappling dummy. Would would find that absurd, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:57

I I hope so.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

God, I hope so.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

It seems like it's a stretch and map and high work.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

No, um and that blew pad work blew up a little bit this week, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Your boy. My boy the funky bird, smile and sam. Which is funny. It was funny, it was well edited.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Alvy, Alvy has no idea who that was. It's like that's Scotty's guy. Like, that's Adam's, that's our friend Scotty's students doing that. Uh he but he's a lot of a lot of people have seen that. It's a it's a great video. Yeah, and Alvy, Alvi's great, like knows a person.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

He's sharp, not known for not known for his uh technical ability.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

No, he he's gotten knocked out. I I think there was a point in his fight career where people were like, please don't let him get knocked out anymore. And he didn't get knocked out because he hits hand pads, and he didn't get knocked out because he doesn't hit enough hand pads. And I think that that is safe to say.

unknown 25:52

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

He got knocked, and then he went to didn't he go to karate combat and get knocked out there? Maybe not so much.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

He's done well in karate combat.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

He has, but I think he had at least one, but I I could be wrong. I don't really watch a lot of karate combat.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

You know, you should watch some. Yeah, his last uh his last fight he got head kicked, knocked out. But he knocked out Tyrone Sprong. Look, he knocked out Tyrone Sprong, right? And Tyrone Tyrone Sprong has hit a lot more hand pads than Sam Alby has. For sure. I I got into it a couple places about shadow boxing. I'm gonna let you handle the pad work because I think shadow boxing is much easier to kill. Because that also came up in the last week, right? We were watching who is that, San Shai?

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Yeah, all the real stuff he was doing while he was dancing around with his eyes open.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

And I couldn't be a bigger fanboy than uh for San Shai. No, you love him. He's incredible. And he was incredible. He's got mid-40s, I think.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

Right. So he was incredible. He's not incredible anymore. Probably still kick my leg off. Yeah, he probably lined the three of us up and beat the shit out of us. But he definitely at the same probably, but that's probably because he has 400 fights or something. It probably has nothing to do with that he shadow boxes and it's real and he's imagining.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

So what was your what was your what was your uh then then talk to us about that? You had some you had some thoughts on that. First of all, explain explain where the narration over the real was.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

So he was moving around and he was speaking, and a translator was saying that he is visualizing everything he's doing is real. That's the word they use, real. And we took it as he is visualizing an opponent and he is fighting that opponent, so that the value of this shadow boxing is that he is fighting an opponent while he moves around. And I hope Barry didn't see the thing because he he does that step that Barry hates over and over again, because it makes sense in shadow boxing when you're imagining things to do, you know, to move your movement is is controlled by you, so that's a normal step to make. Uh just an aside. Um but we got into this long discussion, the three of us, about the value of visualization, and I think we went full circle because I don't think I've never I can't visualize with my eyes open when I'm in my normal life. I can't visualize something. Can you guys? Like I can't visualize enough.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

You said that. No, I I can't. I can visualize, visualizing. I can visualize. I can think about what visualizing. Yeah, but when I think about it, I'm like, am I really visualizing? And you made a comment the other day, right? For your richest imagination, you've generally got your eyes closed.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Yeah, the only visualization I can have is with my eyes closed, but that's a that's a that's almost a narration, I think. I can't go, I can't sit there, close my eyes, and do meditation where I'm no mind, and visualize something. I'm almost I'm narrating almost uh visualization, but that's also I can only do I I can barely do that with my eyes closed. You said, Scotty, it's all low, low resolution. It is it is for me. So when those Russian weightlifters they always use to talk about visualization, they are in the back room with their eyes closed, visualizing a weightlift. And I don't know if they're using that to visualize their technique or to arouse themselves, to see themselves like people talk about visualization, you visualize yourself winning something. You visualize yourself standing on the podium, you visualize yourself walking into the cage. Those are you can close your eyes and re-ex, you're almost re-experiencing, you're trying to re-experience something you've been through before. I don't know what the value of that is. I I don't, it doesn't matter to me. If a fighter, if that gives a fighter some confidence, it's all part of the system, right? So I don't want a group vision, I don't want people sending me visualization papers. What he was doing was imagining an opponent and fighting and fighting that opponent.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

And then some of the comments, because I got in on that, I actually had, you know, it doesn't happen very often, so you remember it's like the one-off. I had some decent conversations, a young kid, not a lot of followers, like no one trying to be a dick to me or me to him. But in one of the comments on that, that was like if he sees this opponent throw a kick and something, and then he defends that kick and he throws, then when it's a fight time, he'll be better at perceiving, you know, this kick and this combo. And I'm saying to myself, what is he reacting to? He created in his mind this person throwing these things at him. That didn't happen by magic. No one implanted this into him. So he's imagining someone throwing things at him. He created the person throwing, how is he reacting to anything? You can't react to a thing that's in your brain that you created. So, how is there any crossover into the flight environment?

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Because it's ludicrous. It's me. You're being it sounds ludicrous when you're saying it out loud. He might he'd be better off. Why not just imagine your responses then? Like, why not close your eyes and visualize your opponent and your responses? No, you don't even need to move. Why can't you do it all in your head? You won't, you don't have to and the people sitting around watching him do it was even they're enthralled.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Oh, look at that. And then he has look at his weight. Look at how you know somebody said something about his his uh his footwork or his his balance or all these things. I'm like, yeah, it's any anyone looks great dancing around a room when no one's trying to murder them. Especially, yeah, especially Sancho. We can go to the club. I was pretty good doing some shadow boxing at 50 years old, and in my brain, I'm a great dancer, like Soul Train style, deaf comedy channel at the end. I can do all of that when I close my eyes, but fuck. I can't do it in the real world, and I want to be able to, and I keep imagining it, but the best I can do is a little bit of rerun, and that's it. It's all I can do. I can shadow, I can shadow box a lot better than I can dance, that's for sure. And you can shadow box a lot better than if you put someone in front of you who's trying to hit you back.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Yeah, I look good. I I look way better. I can do some shit shadow boxing. Up the top, you're a sexy motherfucker. I bet I bet when Usman was shadow boxing, he was dipping and dodging those punches coming at him.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Um, and and you know, it's but we're what we're not saying is we're not saying there's there's perhaps something going on because I think there's a lot of research saying there's some kind of perceived advantage or advantage in in visualization. I think the information processing side is saying we're either updating or um improving our representation, whatever that fuck it the whatever that is, and our side it makes sense, we're now guiding tension. So when you go into the spar, when you go into it, you're more likely these kind of movements and that more likely to emerge or to become more salient. But we'll still have to get in there and do the thing.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

I think at best I would say that if someone said steel man shadow boxing, 10 years ago, I would have said move visualize yourself moving around with someone, right? Because I wanted I wanted them to do, I used to call it a systems check. Even five, six years ago. When my advanced guys wanted to shadow box, I wasn't like, no, you can't shadow box.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

So he's very Barry Robinson.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

And that's fine. And I'm maybe he got something right. Basically, what I want them to do is just feel what everything, make sure everything is working. You know, make sure their shoulders, make sure everything just feels get in tune with your body a little bit. Soothing. It's hitting off a T. When John Baker said we hit off a T because it's soothing, I immediately thought, that's what shadow boxing is. If if a fighter is always shadow boxed, then it becomes a soothing way to get ready for practice. And so I don't want to take that away. It's if it's like if it's like if they need to slowly get into the water, then show up early to practice, put on your headphones, and do whatever the hell you want to.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

I don't think it is like I don't think it is like hitting off a T. I think pad work is like hitting off a T. I think shadow boxing is like hitting an imaginary ball on an imaginary tee.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Okay, maybe, but I would put pad work as hitting off your 70-year-old batting coach throwing underhanded to you. Because I've also, that's all that's the next step. The next step in the cycle. Maybe that's fine. Um so I think it shadow boxing, if you tell me I'm exploring some movements. All right, well, that's fine. You can't tell me you're building your footwork because you can't do that by yourself. You can't imagine that, you can't visualize that. And I think visualization, the studies on visualization are are much different. There is a value in visualization that is a different thing, I believe. And and arousal or intentionality are fine. I'm happy.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

I got a topic. I want to if one's one. Wait, we're done?

SPEAKER_02 35:01

I'm gonna show it. I'm gonna forget. Okay, so hold on, write it down for a sec. So I'm you keep attacking pad work. I'm gonna see if I can get rid of shadow boxing. That's gonna be my because I think it's easier. I think I think people that love shadow boxing will come up with stronger arguments than the people that love shadow boxing. Because the only thing you could say about shadow boxing is all fighters shadow box. But I don't think you can do anything else with it. You can't say it's represent you can't say it's relational, you can't say it can be alive, you can't say great shadow boxing. So I think it's an easier sacred cow to kill.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

And where would I be on the hierarchy of um like uh a value or transfer or perceived transfer? You would think most of the community would say shadow boxing, then pad work, uh then sparring. Would that be fair? Shadow boxing, then pad work, then dead back and forth with a partner, then spar.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Right. And maybe and somewhere between shadow boxing and pad work is like line drills, right? Where like I move up, I I move forward, like Barry Robinson's stepping. So you it's not even creative anymore, it's not even exploring movement, it's just walking, walk, walk right, round, walk left, round, walk right with a jab, round, walk left with a jab, round, walk right with a jab and a sprawl, round, walk. I can make I can layer that cake. All right, Rory, go ahead before you forget. So I wrote it down.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Yeah, I agree. So I'm stripping up and down the map. Our friend Greg Sadders recently was on a podcast, don't remember what podcasts, but had uh had a callback to something Scotty has mentioned in the past called Wareness and Wenness.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Can I just say not to glaze Scotty? But I think I I think when all is said and done, that's his greatest contribution to this. And then I and I think it is so I've I wrote I've been exploring just that idea, and I think it sums up everything so well.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

So hold on, so let me finish. Let me lay out. Okay, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

I just wanted to glaze Scotty a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

So he mentioned so he had mentioned how Scotty came up with this idea of awareness and a weness. And then a friend of ours, John Frankel, who I'm gonna call out because he's called out me in a podcast. Oh shit. He called out me in a podcast. So I'm gonna just say that. Our friend John Frankel thought that that was too wordy. I believe his new thing is to say uh noise to ratio and noise, signal-to-noise ratio, and he just said timing. So please, Scotty, and I know Adam and you have discussed this uh, you know, in our in our in our WhatsApp and whatnot, what and so then why? So what is awareness and aness? And why does timing not simplify that idea of awareness and weness?

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Well, I think timing could kind of collapse down to one word, but my idea of awareness and awareness, and I'm gonna give your brother some credit at this because we were kind of working through these ideas together. Of course, the body is always has like even now we were speaking, there's always there's a nextness, here's me adding someone else, to action, right? We have to move somewhere at some time next. We have to coordinate our bodies, and that is very, very complex. The where we move our body and when we move our bodies all comes down to you know the this history of movement, the context of the environment we're moving in, what we're trying to achieve, what the the the world is affording us at the time. So this is a constant, continuous process where we go next and when we do it. And I think you as soon as you strip the aliveness away, we're now doing something else.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

That's that's so why does timing, why does timing because you did just so you just said a few seconds ago we could we could shrink it to timing, but I don't think you believe that timing explains those two that concept of what you just said of awareness and when this. So what is timing miss?

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Timing would only buy as awareness to it to me, but yeah, not necessarily.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

So what do you think timing is then, Adams? I know you and Scotty have been talking about this for a while. Greg is talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Where awareness to me, awareness to me, they're not separate things, but I I think when this includes timing. But people when what happens is people think that they're drilling to improve timing. And they can they can so what they can do is create dead drills where you know the you're gonna throw a jab cross and I'm gonna slip slip, and you'll say, Why are your students doing that? And they'll say body mechanics, they'll say timing. And uh I don't think that that's the timing. And when we look at the original aliveness, timing, energy, and motion, right? Then you need in a live situation to figure out when is an action available. So when this is a relational thing, it's not you, it's not separate from that relationship. Whereas I have seen too many coaches look at timing as purely an action-driven thing and train it that way and strip out the perception.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

And reactive, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:34

And reactive, yeah, reactive. Uh action, reaction, yeah. Um, and so to me, when this is when is an action available, and that only happens relationally. And where is where is an action, and that's that's that's relationships also your your your space, your position in a relationship. So I think the Ness part is what makes which makes it how we functionally train it. Just say timing, and say, okay, how do you train timing?

SPEAKER_01 41:04

That's when we start to separate from actually so it's actually backwards. So although although he might want to think that signal-to-noise ratio is too big and that we just say timing, in in actuality, what what Scotty has done with awareness and when this is to define more specifically and with better understanding what timing means.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

So just to say it's just not necessarily what timing means, but how to how to how we actually train to find or to understand timing.

unknown 41:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

That to me is what the difference is.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Timing in itself is actually just as a word, is maybe a little bit more nebulous. Like what does timing mean, or how do we create how do we develop actual timing in the alive environment?

SPEAKER_02 41:48

So this is what I wrote, this is what I wrote down. I wanted to define this when I because I was trying to write this down because I wanted to really, and Scotty, you tell me if I'm I'm off, but we have been working on this. Timing is the ability to coordinate an action with a particular movement in time. I know you can't define something that way, but that's but one word is timing, one word is time. When this is the emergent ability to perceive and act upon meaningful changes in the environment. So timing, you can strip timing out of perception and action. But you can't when this is emergent with perception action.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

And it's always happening. It's never also discontinuous. Never.

SPEAKER_02 42:29

You're always training, you're always training when this, if you put a person in front of you and you're training it in an alive matter.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Yeah, I would go further and say with if it's hand pads and shadow box and whatever, there's always awareness and weness. Uh, if we go back to the DDP thing in the reel about uh game planning, or and I'll throw another nest in here, that there's almost a uh a readiness for that kind of problem to come. So he's it's he's kind of almost waiting for this. He's orientating himself towards either um Uzman shot. So it's kind of a readiness there that they're they're trying to get into the game. A readiness for that that expectancy or that exchange or that tendency. But again, we're just going back to you know shaping and directing and intentionality.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Right. And so the the the value of knowing that is then to have to what? To get some training partners that and and have them, hey, every time every time you see this leg this leg, pick it up. Because that's all Uzman does, right? His single leg is not his single leg is just he bends over and picks it up.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

And I think the danger is being too specific on that, then you're kind of you're you're you're focused on the one thing, you're kind of messing with everything else. And you actually feed it to them. Right. Right?

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Because you like DDP then thinks his partner needs uh to do that, and so you almost create this system where it's like a self fulfilling same thing. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. It's the it's the problem with uh what I see when you do a lot of dead drilling and then you Say, okay, now let's do this alive. Well, you've almost created a situation where each person funnels into that thing.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

Like it needs to be, you're actually reacting to something very specific because that's the very specific thing that you have trained. You've put in hours on hand pads or in, you know, I'd say sparring, but it's not the type of sparring we'd want it to be because it's very constrained to this very particular movement or motion or technique. And then you're waiting for it to happen in a very specific manner.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

Let me give a good, let me give a general example that we see in our room. You and I have talked about this. So let's say we're gonna we're gonna spend this session working on shoot boxing. And so we play a we play a 1-1-2 game. Round one, we're both, we're both boxing, but round one, you're shooting. And then round two, I'm shooting, and then round three, we're both shooting. So just a Scotty's invention. Although I gotta tell you, I still have three or four people.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

You boys are really glazing me that you're giving me way too much credit.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

Well, no, the terminology, you go, I go, we both go is a standard thing. One, one, two is a really good way to succinctly put it, except that every class we do that, one or two people say, I can only throw a one-one two? What the fuck are you talking about? And then I then I then I just want to go home sometimes. But anyway, back to so we we do this drill. If you're shooting on me, I can make sure you never get a shot by running away. I can also make sure you get a lot of shots by punching sort of over your head or standing still, or so we can fuck these drills up in a bunch of different ways. We can make them less alive than we think, or we can make them impossible to do, or we could so we have to be careful with that, is what I'm saying. So if we want DDP to see a lot of snaps single legs, we can create an environment where DDP is feeding snaps single legs, and then we'll do that in a fight. And he's not doing and so I think we just have to be careful about that. I think we all agree.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

I think you're right with being careful, and in some way, I I forget, I I wish I remember who asked me this. Um, but because I I make this mistake all the time. And it's just, you know, because the nature of the class, I can't be going away to the corner and having little individual conversations. But as soon as you apply some constraints, we're going, you're going to get two guys in a cage, and you you're going to do this. That's already changing the behavior of the other opponent. And I think the question was is there value in them both knowing what each other's trying to do, or do you whisper it in in the ear of one of your guys and say, Listen, I really want you spamming this? Because once once your opponent knows that's what you're spamming, they are going to regulate and most likely either adjust their behavior to make that more likely or less likely. There's a gaming of the game that's that's I I don't think we give enough um as like constraint-led coaches. I I think we need to be careful with that. There's a gaming of the game that that's constantly going on. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Yeah, I can't.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

I'm not quite sure how to get away from that in a group sense.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

So I've played with a couple things. Um, one is I put up some general archetypes or intentionalities on on the wall on post-it notes, and I'll say, between each round, come over and and just pick one. Get your next partner, pick one. Or pick one, then get your next partner. And it doesn't, I just want you to see how you can incorporate that into your game. And so that gives them a little bit of surprise. And the other day, what I did was I wanted to do some I wanted to do something. I've been working on just some ideas. So the the game was you have a front hand, a jab, and one other tool. But I don't want to front hand, but then you said jab. No, I meant jab, not a front hand, a jab. Whatever a jab means. So that Swiss army knife of a jab and one other tool. But I don't want you to pick that other tool until you move around with this person. And they actually they enjoyed that. It was it was fun. And the the the the best one I saw was two guys who were fighting in open, Scotty calls goofy, open stance, they both obviously immediately picked the rear leg body kick, and they were just both just spamming the shit out of that rear leg body kicking each other. And I'm I thought it was fucking great. You know, and so I think we I I agree with you though, especially jujitsu is tough on that, right? Because you you announce you tell everyone you're you can do this, you can do this, and then kids are the worst. You don't you don't coach kids, but Rory knows Rory knows this all too well. They will they will not only game the cons the game, they'll game everything.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

I think one of the things, I guess with adults more so than kids, is that I try and when I'm teaching like a foundations class or whatever it is, I try and always remind my students that we are playing this game, we're doing a show. I know I don't want to take it back, but we're playing this game and that I still need you to play this game with an understanding that you are playing and within the world of MMA, everything exists. So if we're doing something that if everything exists, like if we're ducking kicks and stuff and we're getting real, real low, well, I'm like, we're not kneeing each other in the head right now, but you're gonna get kneed in the head later. Or you might get snapped out in front of you. Like, we're playing this smaller piece or slice of the game of MMA, but you can't forget that you still live in a world where all these things exist. And that has has on occasion changed some behaviors because I'm like, you can get taken down, punched, wrestled, clinched, kneed, elbowed, get kicked in the head. Like you have to organize yourself in such a way that doesn't ignore that later we might play a game where that is going to be a part of something I want you to pay more attention to or be more focused on. And it takes time. Like this doesn't happen in one class. So these are things that if I'm coaching, I'm I'm sort of always trying to put back in their heads. That changes a little bit of the gaming, again, because you, hey, if we just put our hands behind our backs when we're wrestling and hand fighting, yeah, I'm not gonna get your hands, but you're also no longer protecting your face and I'm gonna punch you in the face.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

So let's not do this. So what's what you're trying to say succinctly, I think, is that the the we can't forget the bigger picture. That the when we constrain a game, we are we are not taking we are not removing it from the thing that we're actually doing, which I think is tough. Yeah, I think that's the that is a tough part. That's maybe that's what we would call over-constraining.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Um, but I get, I mean we're I think that's a danger of over-constraining. I think we just need to appreciate that. If we're talking about game in the game, what is that telling us? Like even whether it's the kids or the adults, they are they are uh organizing themselves around what a a specific intention. Right. And they're they're they're continually going to do that. And if we narrow that too much, I think now we've we've lost that kind of authentic.

unknown 50:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

And that was that was the Kyle Gregg thing, right? Yeah in many ways.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

Yeah, and I see uh I'll point this out to them because I'm trying to get them to think broader, to not put themselves in a in a box. Just because you start with your hands locked doesn't mean that you had to keep your hands locked. And sometimes they'll be like, if I wanted you to get their hands off you, how are you gonna do that with your hands locked? And they'll say, I didn't know I could open my hands. So they're they are constraining themselves, they're expanding because everything we do is a constraint. So sometimes the difficult thing sometimes is like they'll forget a drill we did on Monday when we do a different drill Wednesday. So uh you'll ask them to, you know, I'm just trying to think of something, hand fight and get to the back. And then you'll watch the whole room just doing Greco-Roman wrestling. And then you'll say, nobody thought that if they picked up a single leg, they could get to the back from a single leg? Oh, I didn't know we were doing single legs. I'm like, but we are all we are wrestling. This drill does not exist outside of wrestling. You know, this drill does not exist outside of MMA or outside of jujitsu. Everything you're allowed to do exists. So uh, you know, I could be accused of over constraining that when we when we do the drill shoot boxing, because I don't I take out kicks for safety and for complexity. But when they do MMA, I've noticed that it it doesn't it doesn't have a negative effect. When we're doing full speed MMA with takedowns, then they're kicking, punching, and taking each other down. But if I saw that it had a negative effect, if I saw that introducing kicking made ever you know change the game to the point that the shoot boxing drills were no longer valuable, then I would have to make some decisions. So as a coach, I think we have to constantly, we're going through that constantly, we're iterating constantly. Next, is that we're calling that next-ness.

SPEAKER_00 53:01

Yeah, we're just well shovingness on the end of everything. You mentioned yesterday you guys, uh I'd love to do it, right? Um, but I think the general consensus from the group was from a business perspective, it's it's not ideal. But you guys don't have regular striking, you do jujitsu and MMA striking, right?

SPEAKER_01 53:16

No, just jujitsu and MMA. Just jujitsu and MMA.

SPEAKER_00 53:19

Just grappling and MMA. Fucking MMA. Grappling and MMA. And I really like that. That's where I want to get to. Um, because this is it's a little bit more subtle, but if you're just straight kickboxing or you're even kickboxing with catching all these takedowns, the behaviors that you're seeing, observing are very, very different.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

Yes. Yes. And I think it's easier if someone wants to kickbox to be like, okay, you do all your rounds kickboxing.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

Which is what we which is what we do as well. We have a couple of guys who have been mostly just with the big gloves on, doing kickboxing because that's what they're doing. But or injuries. Or injuries, but injuries. We can still get that person to do some MMA, hey, now now put your Megos on. We're gonna have you do some MA rounds. And then as we get closer, because we'll have an event here in September, we will just spend more time with more of those folks who are kickboxing, just doing kickboxing with their partners. And you don't we we realize that you only need a handful of hours to prepare yourself for that environment uh as opposed to just only doing kickboxing because maybe there'll be a little bit of kickboxing competition in the future. If what most people are doing is MMA, then do that 90 something percent of the time and then just do some kickboxing rounds with the headgear on to prepare for that event. Yeah. And environment celebrate.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

Environment being amateur fucking tie boxing. Like we're not, I'm not making any claims that I can get a guy ready for a pro-level tie boxing match by just doing MMA without takedowns.

unknown 54:53

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 54:54

Although some of those, some of those one fights with MMA gloves looks similar.

SPEAKER_00 55:01

Right. That's the that's how subtle it can be. Um, I've got guys who train big gloves, little gloves, shins or no shins. I'm curious, put a pin in that. I'm curious if you let guys spar without shins. Uh but changing the glove size from 16 ounces to MMA spars completely changes the behavior.

SPEAKER_02 55:18

Oh yeah. It changes the behavior. It not only changed, it changed the behavior, and it changed, well, I guess part of changing behavior is the distance changes in ways that you didn't you don't think it changes. But three ounce, three inches of padding is three ounces, three inches of reach.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

And also three, you know, the big glove doesn't just screw all the guards.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

Right, right. And you're you're less risk-aberse, but you're also more likely to punch your partners or your friends in the face with big gloves than you are with small gloves.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

You don't really want to land, especially more powerfully, you know, because you can get away with you know thudding each other a little bit harder with those big gloves on because they're a little softer.

SPEAKER_02 55:55

I Scotty, the shin pad thing, we have a couple guys who don't love shin pads, and they've they will do a little more sparring without shin pads, and I I think that they probably kick less, obviously. Um, and we were just talking about this, it's part of this topic. We were talking about if you ever hi Bella. Um if you ever saw a video of like an old Dutch Miller, if you saw a video of an old Dutch, like a Dutch training room where they're doing Dutch style tie boxing or Dutch style kickboxing, you see guys with knee pads, those leather shin pads that are like fucking armor, and some guys have booties on, like karate booties, and they are just spamming the shit out of full power leg kicks. If they took all that shit off, they wouldn't do that.

SPEAKER_01 56:45

Well, surely we're gonna do that every day. You can't know if you want to every day.

SPEAKER_00 56:49

Your legs would be they're gonna be a bit more frugal, but they're right. I know it's a little bit more frugal with a short selection, which might not be a bad might not be a bad thing.

SPEAKER_02 56:56

No, and and I think it was Tobias was saying, like he likes his guys to spar at knee pads, not so they could knee each other, but so if they they get caught, they catch an elbow or they catch a knee or oh, whatever it is, there's it's less injurious, but maybe that's inviting people to throw things they wouldn't throw, or being less concerned or less. Yeah. I I've seen these guys in some gyms now where they have the the elbow pads, the knee pads, the full shin pads with the feet on them, big, big ass gloves.

SPEAKER_01 57:27

It almost invites a recklessness that you wouldn't otherwise want your fighters to invite in a cage. It could.

SPEAKER_02 57:34

It certainly could put on headgear and now they look like they're in armor. All they need is a big broadsword. So, like everything else, Scott, I mean, it's it's gonna change that change the environment, it changes the behavior.

SPEAKER_00 57:44

I think that's a takeaway today, right? The even the the a subtle change and uh like a constraint here or a constraint there can very much have big downstream effects on behavior, and we need to just be mindful of that.

SPEAKER_01 57:55

At least that's what we what we think when we think about our our theory of learning and and how the environment shapes that for sure. Anything you change will have, we don't necessarily always know what that effect is. And I think that's what you know we're we're more comfortable in saying we are not quite sure. I don't necessarily say we don't know, but we're definitely not quite sure. I think we're sure we're not sure how.

SPEAKER_02 58:17

Yes, we're not sure how that we're sure the environment changes because we can take the same we can take the same room on Monday night and they spar with small gloves and shin pads, and then on Wednesday night spar with big gloves and shin pads and videotape that and we will see it's different. For sure. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:33

For all the reasons we just said earlier. Yeah, it's different. All those things.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

And how do you change the behavior? It doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. There's still experience in fighty things, but we're just we've got to be at least acknowledge it. It's unclear.

SPEAKER_02 58:46

Yes, that's it. It it is variability, and we just have to, you know, how is there is there good and bad variability? Probably, right?

SPEAKER_00 58:57

Yeah, I I'm sure there is, or better and worse. Um better and worse, sure. And and valuable less valuable. And I think and then we're not quite sure where that line is. Um, and I think what we're saying is do all the different just have a broad array of of fighty things. And if you're purely just doing striking, let's say I think uh when the poster boy for that is Taporia, right? I think he compartmentalizes his the different parts and then maybe integrates it towards the end. Um and no one can deny it hasn't been he hasn't been tremendously successful at that. I would also like to remind everyone, like his he's been doing it for his whole life. Extremely dedicated athlete, him and his brother. If you've heard the story about uh Taporia, him and his brother wanted to do it full time, and again, this is third hand, you know, maybe just a story that's gone around, but the father said, you know, well, if you're gonna do it, you're gonna do it properly. And uh and you're gonna commit your whole life to this. You're not half-ass in it, so to speak, and and they've kind of stuck by that. So it's unsurprising after 20 years of doing flighty things and being a tremendous athlete and having tremendous intentionality and and a work ethic that you're gonna have uh an incredible athlete at the end of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:03

So the flip side of that is then there we can't take someone else's blueprint and say, Oh, we can just apply this. We can't say to oh, Taporeo trains this way. Let's then we should train that way because we we have a room full of people who aren't Taporea, and we don't know if that will work for them. And it's also funny how Taporea for his last fight was doing all those eyeglasses and touching lights, and they were like, Look how high, look at him. Look, he's not he's not leaving any stone unturned, he's always trying to get better, and then he looked worse. It's not because he was doing that, it's because the guy he was fighting made him look worse. So now does now is the way he was training wrong? No, if he's a world champion, he could have probably trained anyway, and he and he would have lost that fight. Because sometimes you lose a fight. It's not up to you, it's relational, very relational, and so that's why shadow boxing's retarded. That's my last all right. I think we should that's about hour and 15.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

I I'm I'm on my way to upload the second part of the bias chat.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:18

Then we've got to upload that, then we can upload this, and we can upload pre, so we keep sort of us guests. Who else do you want to talk to? Do you still have Giuseppe lined up?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:28

I do if I haven't fucked that up because I think we're meant to speak to him this week and I didn't do a good job of following up, but yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

We're gonna turn down the three of us, two Jews and a Gentile again after it about fighty things. Come on, you'd be surprised.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:42

Um, this should have we should have kept the name yapping about scrapping, by the way. That's it's my biggest regret in life. Why can't you change it? Because we got a following. Where would our hundred? Where would our hundred followers find us? They'll still they'll they'll still stay, they're still subscribed. Are three of these followers are sales? Yes, I am following. Yeah. Even my my wife doesn't even follow us. She doesn't listen to this. She's like, I hear. But we got I got hey, we got us a new international follower. Who's that? Baris took us up with a guy who uh runs, he coaches a bunch of programs in Shanghai and works at the PI in Shanghai. And he was very interested in what we're doing. He's he's going through the growing pains right now. And I know we were cutting, but he's also going through the growing pains of how important culture is. Um, and so he started listening to our podcast. So there you go, we're international now.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:34

Last thing then before we go on, because you mentioned self-determination theory, and I've been dropping that into all my chats over the years. And then when I I was writing about had to, you know, write about it for college and investigate it. It's it maybe doesn't hold up as well as I thought. And especially because the reason I'm bringing this up, you mentioned that in China, it's just a different culture over there, you know, and that was one of the in in eastern traditions where there's a huge regard and respect put on the uh the coach and the kind of hierarchy in the tradition, that that it's actually not great to give a lot of these athletes autonomy. They don't want the autonomy. So no, that's sort of what that's sort of what he was he was implying, is is that they don't think I think we think they want autonomy, and I'm not and and I and I get this. In fact, I had a um uh that's been some of the some of the feedback, right? We don't keep everyone that comes to primal, and they they they struggle with the autonomy. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:24

Well, look at look at I mean autonomy, and I think if you just look at the technology, that China doesn't, they're not very creative or innovative in their technology. They are very good at engineering and things, but creativity is not a prize or it's not thought of the same way as it is here. And so, how do you ask, how do you tell a bunch of fighters in China, hey, we're just gonna explore and be creative, and I'm just gonna do, I'm just gonna, we're gonna co-create this shit. Like, that's tough. And he's running into, and I believe he is coaching in mixed rooms of expats and foreigners and people that grew up in China, and so like half the room is like, yeah, I get this, I love this, and half the room is like, hey, coach, how do I do this? And that's like, if you have Rory, to to put a pin in this, if you have two cultures, how many cultures do you have? None. Bam! Thank you. I'm out. All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:23

Love you guys. Love you guys.