Learning to Fight - Priit Mihkelson - Episode 33

Learning to Fight Podcast — Conversations in Combat Skill

After a year-long hiatus, the Primal MMA Coaching Podcast is back—Rebranded, and refocused as the Learning to Fight Podcast: Conversations in Combat Skill.

Your hosts are:

Adam Singer — Co-owner and head coach at SBG Athens, BJJ black belt, long-time MMA coach, with years of developing novice to elite level fighters. Student of Matt Thornton and SBG's philosophy of 'aliveness'.
Scott Sievewright — Co-Owner at Primal MKE, MMA skills coach and obsessive student of how humans learn to move and fight. 

Together, we dive deep into the art and science of coaching, training, and skill development in combat sports.
 Expect honest conversations about MMA, striking, grappling, practice design, contemporary research, traditional approaches, ecological dynamics, and the messy realities of learning under pressure.

No gurus. No dogma. Just two coaches trying to understand fighting a little better each week.

Same curiosity. New lens.
Learn how to learn.
Find your own style.
Thrive on the mats—and in the cage.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Good morning. It's the Singer Brothers and we are joined today by Coach Preet Migleton. How are you doing, Preet? We've been trying to get this uh organized for a while.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

So far, so good. It's a lovely day here, 4 p.m.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

so 4 p.m. Very nice. Okay. Take it away item.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

No, I don't want to take it away. But this is this was um this was emergent because I didn't even know Preet was coming on until you told us this morning. So like everything else, we're gonna have an emergent conversation. But I think for anyone who doesn't know who you are, Preet, tell us who you are.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Uh yeah, it's a complicated story. Uh so uh I've been doing martial arts now starting 17, so I'm 49 at the moment. Uh at the moment, I'm we are uh there's a club, Estum Jiu Jitsu, it's in Tallinn, Estonia, small, fierce country uh under um below the Finland, next to Russia. So we're in that corner. And um at the moment we're doing pure jiu-jitsu. Uh kind of COVID killed our gym. Uh we were uh yeah, the last kind of restrictions and stuff kind of uh dried all the resources we had. So and then we decided to go apart with the MMA section. Uh there was some disagreements about how things were done and everything. So, and we couldn't find uh compromises and stuff. So we ended up that was a good uh kind of the end of the COVID was a good point that to talk about stuff actually. We found courage a little bit and then ended up actually separating. And uh we went to Jiu Jitsu Way and they went to MMA way. Uh so uh before that we had a gym called 3D training, kind of uh SVG era gym. Even the name, I think it is inspired uh 3D distance. That was a big thing to stand up clinching ground, you know, all those words. Uh, another Estonian gym, you know, was like inspired by a liveness gym, you know, it was an Indra and the organ and stuff. So a lot of names were taken back then uh from the from the Bible. Uh and uh so 3D training, I think we started officially 2005, but not officially around 2000s. Uh I was, I think, the first they say that started uh that kind of jujitsu uh in Estonia. Uh and if you go where more back, I think it started with Wing Chan. So I was then doing karate, Aikido. I was Tai Chi coach, actually. I was doing Michuan Tai Chi Chuan. Uh actually Squad Rodell from US was a coach or uh you know instructor. Uh and um then my karate coach died, and it was a messy, messy history, and then ended up the whole club ended up on my shoulders, and I was the best student. Um, and then because it was all mixture of karate and some softer styles that came to Estonia back in the day, all the Bakwas, Tai Chis, and what uh what else? There was something else, some kind of styles. So our karate instructor was also influenced, he was looking for himself, and uh it was all infused by softer arts. And uh, so at the time when the everything was on my shoulder, there was Aero also Stephen Siegel, you know, Wing Chun was you know apparently better than karate uh by movies, and then we ended up actually uh shifting all the gym for to Wing Chun. So I I went to Wing Chun direction. I think I switched uh instructors like four times because um different reasons. Um I'm a complicated person. Um and um and uh last one, uh actually, second one, second instructor, German one. Um he found the first student also in Estonia. I was a second one, and the first student was a former Sambo guy. So and he said Wing Tun is good in stand-up and uh you need groundwork, also. I was like, Yeah, okay, you know, and then as soon as I saw the you know sambo or groundwork, I liked it right away. There was no like oh yucky or something, and um then he did some seminars for us and uh you know, like squeezing the kidneys and you know, simple ankle locks and arm bars and stuff, and and we started uh small groups, uh continued doing even beside wing chun when was the main thing, very popular. I was doing a good job. And so besides that, we were doing some uh wing uh grappling, and then we had, I think we had every month kind of bloody Thursdays when we fought, uh, helmets on, wooden floor, I think, and uh you know, not um groin protections and stuff, and then we fought, and then you know, usually double leg, mount punching, uh elbows in the face, you know, in a clinch, all those things work. None of the wing tune stuff worked, and uh we were starting, and grapplers, we uh even like he had very, very little exposure, grapplers had immense, uh like immense advantage in those exchanges, and so um one thing led to another, and also wing tune politics in some point after there was a 14 structure, it was a money-making scheme, pyramid scheme, whatever you want to call it, it was disastrous, and then we had enough in some point, and we were strong enough in grappling in Estonian scene. Also, then we left in the mid-season 2005 and opened up uh MMA Gym, like uh, and then I think uh officially we we opened up later, but it was I think the we started 2005 in February, and then officially the club was done 2005, uh May. I think the Tartu guys, Jorgen and Indrak, maybe you guys know they opened up 2004, so they were officially ahead of us, but you know, they all they're all my students anyway. So and so that that's their like a brief history, and then I've done a lot of stuff, you know. They people know me as you know Michaels on his his nine styles, implying that you know I never stuck to one, you know. And then finally I found Jiu Jitsu, and then you know, after now it's been 26 years, so so that's the history and changing gyms, and now we're training a palace. We're in a T1 center. Uh it was a mall that's uh repurposed, and then all third floor of the mall uh got repurposed for sports. So we have us dancing, fencing, boxing, wrestling, chess academy, actually, uh children, gymnastics, um uh Thai boxing, so what else? Capoeira, so it's like that. And now we train in that place and we're kind of happy. And the gym is called Estom Jiu Jitsu now. Yes, so that's it.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

So sorry, my I got some instruction going on outside, and I think feel like they're gonna follow me everywhere I fucking go today. So now I moved. Um, all right, so uh we met you during your SVG days. You um you had come on a you you had started to make a name for yourself, and uh I'd I'd love you to talk about sort of how you found SVG, what about SVG attracted you, and then why you eventually left SPG.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

So uh you know, we never liked Brazilians, so to speak. And the whole SPG movement was against those that kind of training method. It was all about you know the anarchy sign, and you know, a lot of that going against the grain. And uh we had Finnish people, you know, across the bond. They had all the Marcelo Garcias and Fabio Giorgial and stuff, so we and attended those seminars. And we but we never we were poor Estonians, so we never invited anybody to Estonia. So we went to seminars and competed uh in Finland. Quite good in that sense. And um and then uh so I actually got my blue belt from uh Alexander Paiva. Uh I was in Finnish seminar, so and Interact has gotten uh did did got this blue belt from uh Matt Thornton, I think in England or something. Yeah, and um so I was in seminar and you know I was doing good, and Paiva was like, Yeah, if your student is a blue belt, you cannot be a white belt, and then you know ended up having a blue belt. Uh and uh then they asked me also like pretty what you want to do, you know, in the Finland that you want to join the Alliance, you know. There was a big big team in Finland, Alliance. And I was like, I don't know. So and then Indrek, Indrek by then uh was already a big fan of Matt's uh personal blog. I have also read that uh extensively. He was talking about, you know, what's the word? Philosoph philosophying, you know, his personal blog, not the Libnius blog. And uh Matt uh Indrek knew him already, and I think met him also because I don't know how he met, but he went to the seminary and got a blue belt uh from Matt, I think in UK. And uh so and there was a crossroad that I was like, what do I do? Who do I join? And then Indrik was like, let's go SPG, blah blah blah. I know, I know them what they're about. And I was like, Yeah, okay, I don't want to split our community, you know, because we were a small community, and I was trusting Idric, and uh he's right now, I think, doctorate in philosophy or something. You know, he's like traveling around teaching outside teaching outside Estonia, also, and so he's been doing good, it's very very smart. There's a funny story what happened to him in uh Carl's Carl Tanzwell gym, also he changed personalities. There's a crazy story about what effect has uh non-hydrated Iron Man hunt people.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

Okay, well, put a pin in that because I have some non-hydrated Iron Man stories as well.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Yeah, so um, and uh so Indrik, yeah, and that's why we went with SPG. Um and I think maybe I met Matt. I got a purple bolt from Matt, I know, in Carl's gym in UK, or in a place they had a seminar in UK, and uh that was also a time I think when Indrik got a purple bolt, and then he changed his personality, and we had to uh pull ambulance and stuff because he was super hydrated, and then he had a crazy idea that would change the world that he couldn't remember after that when he changed the acting, but he was he was pretty scary and uh he wasn't himself, so um and uh I believe we had a hundred we had a hundred and fifty person Iron Man at a camp.

SPEAKER_03 9:12

I think it's the last time we Iron Man people at a camp and they took someone away in an ambulance.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Yes, so and I actually I got the purple belt by uh uh Davidson brother. What's the one? One is Travis Travis? Travis Rick Rick, yeah, and um it was similar, and Matt was like teaching something, and uh it was like somebody wants to try, I don't know, the past the guard or whatever, whatever it was. I was like, yeah, I mean, you know, and then it wasn't it was supposed to be like um like a small demonstration or that how he defends or whatever it was, but it ended up being I was rolling with Rick like 20 minutes, and then uh I was doing fine, you know. I guess I don't know. And then after that, somehow I got a purple belt, or I don't know. I I don't think it was an Iron Man or whatever, but that was the time I got purple belt from Matt, I think, rolling with the Rick.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

What was an Ironman? What's Iron Man? Is that an SBG thing?

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Uh it's uh it's uh I we use it still till this day in our gym, so it's uh it's a very cool event when uh when somebody like we do it like you know you have the belt already, it's not like you don't know who you got a belt. So it's a ritual of uh everybody comes up, you line up from white belt to black belt because of safety reason, and then you roll with everybody. And uh point is like it's it's like resurrection because you will die, you know, mentally and physically, like you know, exhaustion. I mean, and then uh the group is carrying you through the end, and you're the most vulnerable you've ever been in front of people because they could just tap you left and right, and you know, but you're so exhausted, and you're just you know, and then everybody's keeping you safe, that's why higher belts are in hand, and then I'm the last usually that you know ties the belt on, and and I grab your hand and you know, usually stand you up, and you're a new person, and you've never been that tired before. It's uh it's a really changing experience. Everybody sees you the weakest, and you've never done something that hard. And it's uh there's a lot of things I I value in that. Uh, but yeah, not like changing personality and uh being rough whatever, but it's if you've done the right way, I think it's a very good uh culture-building uh mechanism.

SPEAKER_03 11:08

Yeah, so we we do we do about two to three a year, three on average, about three. Um, the people get in their belts. I usually use it as to do a little State of the Union address since I have between 80 and 120 people in the room at the time. Um, do a little State of the Union, we talk about the reason we do the belt ceremony, it's a big culture building thing. And then we we I I bring out the people into the middle, they get cheers, pictures, we have a professional photographer, and then they grapple everyone in the room. And if someone is injured, they just shake their hands. We'd like everyone to show up anyway. Um, it's about an hour and a half of hard grappling. The purple, brown, and black belts, they go to submission with everybody. The blue belts, we are a little more lenient. Um the music is blasting, it's chaotic, it's it is really um, it is really something special and something to see. And and I don't know, SPG, I think, took it from Chris Howder. Um, and I don't know how I don't know what other people's look like, but it is uh one of the best culture things that we do in the gym. And like Preach said, it's not a test. I'm very clear about that. The person has the belt. It is a celebration. Like and and you you roll with people you've never even met before, and it's just very, very cool. Sorry, it's like a rate of passage.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Yeah, sure. Sometimes we surprise also that somebody they don't know if they get it, you know, they have it, but they haven't they don't know if they get Iron Man today, you know. Sometimes we surprise, oh, you too, you know. Oh shit, you know, that's like a they're nervous and they gas out really fast because of that.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

We we used to we used to surprise people, um, but then and I agree with Rory, he people want their family to be there, they want their friends, and it also creates a good atmosphere. So the Monday we we make the choices as a group. So all of all of the head coaches, the black belts and the brown belts, they put names in the hat. And if a black belt says this person's a blue belt, then that's automatic. And then purple, brown, and black, we have discussions about. And so the Monday before the belt ceremony, Rory calls them and says, Hey, are you gonna be here? And you you may want to bring some family, and that's it. I like surprises, but it's not about me, it's about them. And I'd like them to have their family and friends there if they'd like.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Sometimes we do it, it's like uh always fun. But we already know beforehand what's what's gonna happen a bit. So built, yeah. And um, I think Jorgen was um Jorgen Southeast, Jorgen Metze. He was going to Carl's Tanzwell place for uh, I think three months, UK. I think it was at least a month or two, if three, if not three. I know I was very envious about that, and then I tried to top him by going to States to match Jim uh to Portland for three months also. Uh, we had a three month uh esta, you know, you can travel without a visa for three months, and so I went to Portland. Um very crazy. I went to New York, didn't have a ticket to Portland because I was suggested to buy a ticket from the New York because there's like cheaper tickets that that turned out to be super lie, and then I didn't have money, and then I had to call back home and find people that are giving me a big sum of money so I can travel forward, and then uh uh arrived. There was, I think, Bill also, he got kicked out at some point from SPG being rough, and he was, I think he was trying to charge me and stuff, but I guess my deal was that I trained there for free or something, I don't know, for three months coming from abroad, and then I didn't have a place to stay. I had nothing prepared, kind of like I don't know, like a green in life. And then uh we rolled uh with a guy that's named Peter Bogosian, and he was like, Where are you staying? you know, and I was like, I have no clue for the next three months. And he was like, Prete, you're staying with me. And so uh we're still good friends with Peter, and it was like a life-changing experience with this crazy, crazy guy. We went to we went to doctor dinners, pretending we're doctors in the US, and crazy shit happened in America. So, and uh that's how it started. So I started to visit, I think, America basically every year, every other year for three months, you know, visiting Travis's place also. SPG coaches kind of took me uh under their wing. I went to Georgia, you guys visiting, I don't know what year it was. And uh so state state did I stay at Rory's house or I visited your house.

SPEAKER_03 15:16

You stayed at Rory's.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

That's the mean I stayed. I remember that pool.

SPEAKER_03 15:21

Yeah, yeah, and uh so and we met we met in Niagara. That's I think that's the first camp you spoke at.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Yeah, so uh all oh yeah, all places traveling, doing camps. And I think it was only 2000, I think it was 18, uh, when uh I left. I had a conversation with Matt uh because of uh uh one I don't know, I called him once my friend, I don't know what we are right now, but uh I went to UK to do the seminars at uh at uh Stafford. And then uh and then then uh UK SPG found out um and they got really mad at me visiting their compet comp competitors or something. Uh and then uh Matt contacted me and asked me do you understand why they're angry? And uh I was like, because I'm you know traveling to UK without them knowing or whatever. And then uh we ended up disagreeing and uh and then after that we haven't spoken actually. And uh so I I I ended up leaving. We were thinking about how to actually leave SPG because uh for me it wasn't the same anymore. I think you know we had crazy stories about camps being in Estonia, you know, Kavanaugh, Karl Tanzwan, Kuna Nelson, and uh I don't know, some snipers, uh some crazy people, and then what whatever happened in camps stays in camps. You know, SPG camps in Sweden when basically they they tell that you guys should never come back in those places you stayed, you know. So there those are legendary days. Uh and uh but there's something something changed, I think, towards the money more in some point. It was all this Lloyd Irving getting millionaire, becoming a millionaire thing, I think.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

Uh and uh so that seemed to that seemed to go over differently in Europe, and and I, you know, I'm not gonna throw around words like socialists or whatever, but that that I it seemed to go over differently in Europe than it did here. Here it made sense, um ignoring the the Lloyd stuff, but it made sense that we should be running our gyms in a professional manner. Right? You you it it's hard to have a it's hard to sustain a gym here, it's hard to sustain a culture if you are not running a gym in a professional manner.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

But I I don't think it's I I you know we're doing business and I don't think it's money, but I think it was something else. And and there was uh also what we've seen how people were treated, or or we were very, very uh very SPG like a Bible, you know, aluminus blog and stuff. We took it to the heart. And uh so yeah, something happened in those things, and it it wasn't about training anymore. And and uh so we were trying to, I don't know, find a way how to leave. And that situation that happened in UK gave gave that push that went up disagreeing, and and uh 2018, I think in June or July, something, and then uh we left. But we I know with Ronald, with my buddy that I do, Jim, we were talking about it before. Uh it's not the same, you know, it's changed. I don't I don't mind, you know, things change, you know, and it's not like but it just didn't suit what we were after and uh what was promoted and how things were done, and and so uh we we thought we don't we don't feel it because we actually that was really good. We we went to Ireland a lot because you know John Cavanaugh is a leader in that sense, but but to get the feeling of SPG because we're far away, you know, we're far east from you guys, and uh sometimes it's hard to maintain the you know vibe and vision, you know. So you get to island and get to see people and meet up and stuff, but in some point it it wasn't the same. And uh and I was I was kind of afraid of that actually to leave, but uh turned out to be a blessing in disguise, and I found my own voice. Uh I could promote my own ideas, you know, all the trottling things, and travel the world for seven years basically. Like, and then you know here we here we are visiting a podcast.

SPEAKER_03 19:16

So uh so I would love to know sort of so let's say you have sort of three major evol three major steps, right? You have a SPG, then you have a period where you're doing your own thing, and then you seem to really fall in love with this um in ecological approach. And I think the reason that we we wanted to have you on, other than that we've all known each other for a very long time, is you have been one of the most vocal supporters of everyone doing any good stuff in this space. And and and surprisingly, you have not put yourself in the front where where most people that have gotten into this ecological approach are very quickly trying to establish themselves as experts. You are doing an amazing job of sharing and pushing what everyone else is doing. And I love, I think that's amazing. Um, every day I click on your Instagram story, there's cool stuff that I don't have to miss because you're so I I'd like to spend the rest of the time talking about in ecological approach, but I'd like to know sort of looking backwards, what did you what did SBG, what did that training feel like look like, and when what did your own look like? And then how do you get here? And and you don't have, I mean, that doesn't have to be a long, that can be brief, but I think that'll give us a chance to really talk about where we all are right now.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

So obviously I really enjoyed uh all this progressive resistance, it made sense, you know. Uh we didn't do the shrimps and drilled, and so our classes were, you know, more or less live, so to speak. We didn't we still had a warm-up and technique section, but we were trying to keep everything at line that that the Bible said, you know, the aliveness block. And uh in a way, to the letter, in a way. And uh, but there's always some some some problems always kept coming up, you know. It was very difficult to understand progressive resistance, you know, giving the right feedback, uh, keeping it in context. People we did a very good class with resistance progressively, and then you look sparring, and other things happen that didn't happen in those drills when the progressive resistance resistance was present. So it was like, why didn't people, you know, because if somebody does arm bars to me, I can give the progressive resistance of things that I know will happen to them in a fight, you know? So I can keep it real also. Uh, but you know, if you don't if they don't have tasks, uh, beginners do not know what is real, they're just resisting and they they don't have their own thing to do. So that was some things if I retrospect see, and uh there was always uh sense that that one one person is training the other. It's not like not both are working, you know, like you're holding pads to somebody and wasting your time behalf of class. And uh as soon as the it didn't come actually from me, it was other one black belt, Tom Manor, uh Estonian best scrapers so far. Our gym uh now is a black belt. And uh he founded, I think, from Latlands. He was on the he was also. sharing uh rob's books i i talked to i've talked to lachlan also and then he fell off a little bit because i think he got wrong answers in the beginning uh i think he didn't he didn't he wasn't he was he weren't he wasn't satisfied with the answer he got uh the auto apply it and why and everything else and then i don't i think he moved on uh but i think it abus i think i wait i we're talking about lachlan giles right yeah yeah i i think what happened to him and i've seen it happen to some other people is that it it would have required him like you have a bunch of videos on b to j fanatics you have a bunch of work out there but it doesn't necessarily mesh with your current views and things and to to to say that that some of the things I did previously are no longer valid and it takes a lot of balls and I think Lackland was faced with that where what he was learning didn't necessarily mesh with what he was previously doing and I think he just decided to keep doing what he was doing. But it's it's the trap yeah like how do you you know how do you make everything emerge and stuff all those fancy techniques and I think the answers he got weren't satisfied because I also I I'm not I've been vocal about it I hate it I hate retrospect the eco community in the beginning like it's not it's way different than it was promoted like when we started I was told you can't show anything you can't you know you can't show anything you can't um I don't know say stuff and it was very strict and uh now I know what it is more you know wait who was who is strict who is telling you what to do when it started it was the message from the internet you know people were if you if you show anything you know everything has to emerge and I was like how do you make stuff emerge and why we're inventing wheels and so I I'm being vocal about it and the message was I didn't like the message obviously yeah retrospect I'm watching I don't know what's going on you know they're saying those things but uh so we thought about it a year before we jumped in actually and then we jumped in like let's go you know from day one and it was a mess for a month for about three months maybe because it was just full on sparring and very very chaos and very risky and and all the constraints and everything so when I look back I was like yeah so I'm we have to go through that but as much as we thought we knew we didn't know shit but we started you know so and um and I don't know if you have to start like this but these days the message is way more clear if you actually want to listen uh so we had a lot of questions there was only I think one book or two books out you know and it was a mess. So but we what we liked um what I instantly I remember that or I think I remember uh was that it solved two problems it's solved the problem of progressive resistance so now it's like task you know we're fighting about things and we try to scale it differently you know different ends and so now not like one person is training other one so that was a big thing uh progressive resistance wasn't anymore necessary and both could train right away in the class you know it was right away uh and what we you know we ditched uh warm-ups and then people were just were not late anymore and everybody joined us showed and there was a lot of changes happening obviously uh but yeah the main thing was that uh the resistance that certain things that we had to always manage and um these days that that that disappeared and there's always a CLA brings other stuff to the table and then you have to manage other stuff but we kind of intuitively knew what was the you know the flaw flaws of the I method or something. And uh but I think it was better than just drilling anyway dead drilling it was resistance anyway and it was it was best we had and and then uh now now CLA and yeah how much I'm in I'm so full of doubt that's why I'm just trying to be like a just observer because the more I read that just the more I understand I don't know shit. And then I'm just watching everybody so sure of themselves. And um I just I I don't know how to make memes. I don't know what to say. It's just everything sounds stupid in my head and I'm like maybe this is right this is wrong. So I I enjoy when people are brave and uh putting themselves there and then they get corrected or not or so yeah I'm I'm I'm fully supporting and it helps me a lot and uh maybe I find my voice and say something uh and do memes or maybe I'm not that's my not my thing so we'll see uh but I'm definitely trying to be um I'm trying to not be the stupidest in the room you know trying to educate and then we'll see when when I say something more like yeah I'm feeling more like um I feel more comfortable sharing other people's work and uh because there's so much smart coaches I listen to constraint collective and when I listen to those coaches I'm like I feel like I'm like nobody you know like ESDs established coaches making research stuff and um it's it's really like the giants are you know as I'm just I'm happy to share their work you know and hopefully people are interested and they don't have to listen to me but really established people that are actually full of doubt also and trying to move forward and then that's that seems to be what I do right now.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Hey it's not memes anymore it's AI slop infographics so that's what you're gonna get on AI slop infographics. And it's funny I just wanted to sense you mentioned uh progressive resistance I get I get for some reason uh the label of having created Matt's new terminology that he takes around which is adaptive resistance so it progressive resistance went away I somehow came up with adaptive resistance some years ago and the same thing like you said the progressive resistance the adaptive resistance we're training the other person that I have I actually said to Matt at a camp the other uh uh not long ago I was like listen you gotta stop going around the world saying I invented that I no longer stand behind it it's like no I I tell everybody all over the world I'm like that's cool but I don't back up I don't I don't agree with adaptive resistance anymore and I think you said it very well the idea that we are actually helping to train the other person we're not we're not training with them so yeah that's something that uh I don't get behind anymore.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Adaptive is maybe a better word if I remember somebody said than progressive progressive kind of you know it's kind of going harder adaptive means like whatever it's necessary. But yeah that was the big thing that somehow we felt that oh shit now the tasks and stuff and so there's been interesting side effects and uh you know not everything is explainable by people being talented anymore our gym method seems to do some job we had uh you know blue belts level lowered we had the fastest purple belt unofficial fastest black belt in Estonia now so I don't know uh so weird things are happening that are not explained by stuff so and uh I really enjoy and there's I really what what I really enjoy right now is I can read like um I don't know scientific not like papers but books and smart people that it's not only it's not SPG centered you know like somebody wrote it down let's say like you know I can read books and have my own opinion about it you know there's studies and stuff and so before you know I'm not complaining in that sense SPG was more like a math math method you know Matt's method he said it I think it was good at that time but it wasn't like questioned you know or you know where you got it on does it evolve or you know so and we know that with scientific stuff right now with uh all this ecological thing is like evolving as we speak so I love the process you know people challenging it you know uh we talked about it maybe it's not constrained to afford maybe we're just constraining and you know things are evolving you know people because people giving resistance and uh playing with ideas and coming up and it's more like a circle between coaches and uh researchers and and so I really enjoyed that that I can have my own opinion I can read the literature neutral you know and I can interpret you know and see about how everybody else has done it so it's not top down so much that um that that now I didn't I think I wasn't aware that if I was an SPG that now I see it like uh like separately like it was kind of top down uh it was you know it was presented in that way that's what we do I didn't ask why we do it or where it comes from and what it's based on you know but now I kind of think differently I don't know why I opened up or somebody pushed me to see the world so now it's more doubts and stuff and uh back in the day I was just more trusting people you know and what they say and uh but I I found out that so many things that people say turned out to be wrong you know so like a turtling thing you know uh I I grew up with knowing turtle is a transitional position and obviously that's wrong you know and uh you should never turtle or whatever or you show your back and you know I made a career out of that and staying in turtle forever and now we see it in MMA people are actually going to turtle staying there you know Sakurawa made a career out of killing racist by just staying in turtle you know so a lot of things people said you know even even small things don't put your hands on a on a mat in close guard I know that's false. Keep your elbows close that's false. You should keep your elbow maybe close and so many things that I know now because spent you know defensively I you know I consider myself upper body defensively quite you know knowledgeable or something and so many things I discovered that people didn't know what we're talking about. And so I've learned more like if somebody says something that I I should take it with a grain of salt always even if they're a big authority and stuff and and with eco and everything also reading books but also considering like it's not like the whole truth which nobody knows what the hell is going on. We're all making assumptions you know that's why like your podcast guys just it's just full of doubt you know it's like it's so refreshing and uh Scott is always I have no clue what's going on you know and uh you guys are making results and stuff and people are fighting and I don't know if it's true but my friend Daniel from Sweden says Scott I don't know you had or you still have like a pretty good like uh amateur record amateur gym record with the wins and losses or something and uh from the gym yeah we're amateur team is is is thriving. Yeah so Daniel was like yeah you don't guys you don't do head contacts la la la you know and you're making those results something's going on but you know you're doing something right but then when I hear you speak it's like I'm like giggling when I see you guys talk like it's got this like I don't know I I don't know what's going on I I don't know what I'm doing you know so it's very refreshing to for everybody's being so sure you know so yeah I'm just a big fan of what you guys do.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Well actually Adam and I spoke a bit about that yesterday right I said are we parting our own message by just saying we don't know what the fuck we're doing. I think I think I'm more comfortable to say that there's a lot of absolutes there's a lot of absolutes and assumptions made in the sport. Once you kill one of you see one of these uh you scrutinize one of these things right um like these the the things that are just given in our sport that we have to do this and you can't create athletes unless you do this. And once you find once you see one thing crumbling you start to question it all. So I I think that's where Adam and I are in Rory too is and that's why we talk about it it's like I'm not I'm not even sure that we can do the ecological approach wrong. I mean yeah because obviously I'm not even so it's just is a um is it going too far down the the humility route I I don't know what you gotta say on that Adam you you mentioned yesterday.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

I know it's a lot of tongue in cheek we're kind of talking about both sides of our mouth I think what I think we don't know what no we don't know what nobody knows right so we don't know what we can cause and affect nobody does no matter what methodology you use no matter how you coach no matter what you subscribe to you can't say I input this and I get out this because it is too complex because every situation is different every relationship is different. So I think what we're really saying is we do our best and the results are going to be the results we don't necessarily know how we get from point A to point B and we probably never will and but what I what I do believe and I think where we have to be clear is the thing that we know that every coach knows if they're being honest is that the greatest effect on an athlete occurs from doing the thing. Now we don't know why that is and I don't think it matters but we do know that every athlete in the world who's ever done anything ever developed any level of skill has done it because they've done the thing and so the the thing about doing the thing is it doesn't involve the coach it's not three of us doing the thing it's the two athletes doing the thing in the environment that we can then affect change manipulate build protect whatever that is and so I I don't I think we are being humbled because we we should be humbled. There are enough people saying this works this is the best thing ever here's my new video series on it. I don't want to be that you don't want to be that Rory doesn't want to be that preet it doesn't sound like you want to be that but I do want but I I'll tell you this and I I think we all agree with this the only thing we are beholden to is our athletes and so if we didn't really believe that this was the best method regardless of knowing if it works or not if we didn't believe this is the best method I believe we would all be we'd change as soon as we found the best method Greed I I did it Greek did it Scotty you did it and if someone comes up with something better tomorrow then I'm in.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

I'll fucking I will immediately say to Rory and and my coaches hey this is what we do now and go but I don't I don't I don't see how anything will replace doing the thing and I want Dory to plug in that I already know what you guys mean when you say don't you don't know anything. I know what I mean by that it's not like it's not literal but yeah so that aspect is always there that that uh it seems like like literally nobody knows and we're making assumptions we're doing tests we're seeing what works but always keeping that you know open for possibilities that there's maybe something more and I think it's very very important that if you already think you know everything. And I I I'm very happy that I could change I think because I also contributed to SPG a little bit because it's a little bit very little bit parasit word it's it's close to it's close to you know CLA and eco kind of way and so it wasn't that that big of a jump uh and obviously it's dangerous to just change your mind and do something else and and it was a culture shift in a gym and some people were questioning when we're doing techniques again and you know typical things happen to our gym. But it made sense to us and uh it was a rare case that all of us three coaches were in the same page. Usually it happens with one and then you have to argue with others and everything. You know I've seen those stories somebody starts alone in a gym and everybody's against so we were happy that everybody was all the coaches were abroad abroad and then we just went and looking back crazy crazy decision but haven't haven't regretted since and uh now even being in I I start to let's say understand it better and then I'm fighting still goddamn more books to read that's that's quite deep and uh and I love it. Gives me something to do gives me a purpose and I I feel I'm you know I'm not officially educated so I'm trying to make up that that stuff that I missed school whatever I didn't get educated in that sense but usually people find their path maybe later in life and even without formally educated I feel I'm doing my partner getting there a little bit so yeah I I love to be in the moment and it's crazy for me that it's happening at the moment you know in my lifetime in this era that I'm I'm seeing this you know unfold kind of in front of my eyes the science you know and uh in got uh like uh in a you know jujitsu first wave kind of you know you know after the Southers obviously and it's just crazy to be like it's a like a I don't know I sometimes I say I just start to believe in God or we we say in Estonian that you know God is Estonian when something really clicks you know in our way and uh uh so it's really really amazing that uh to be in you know not in even for forefront but when it's happening you know and uh science I I don't I I think forefront I think if we looked at if we had numbers in front of us of the number of coaches who were using an ecological approach however they were applying it CLA whatever it is using an ecological approach when the grappling coaches and the MMA coaches got in I bet we 10x that number and what's really interesting is a lot of us that got in at that beginning and and we could thank Souters we could thank Rob a bunch of people we because there's so much doubt for a lot of us we dove into the science also and when I'm Scotty and I are talking Rory and I are talking we're talking with other coaches we know it at these things talking to Rob there's a lot of things that are moving very fast because we are practitioners but there are a lot of us who who are really interested in the the science aspect of it and I don't think that I don't think that there were as many scientists with the experience coaching that we have and so we can we are bringing something different to the table now.

SPEAKER_03 38:32

And I'm seeing it just I'm I'm seeing the discussions I'm seeing the evolution I'm seeing what's going on um and I think it's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Yeah I'm I'm excited I'm like a kid in a candy story I have like uh 11 books to read right now so I'm stop buying them because uh right now I'm reading the Epstein stuff uh you know the books uh range and you know inside the box and next is the sports gene and then I'm back to emergent cognition and yes so you know summer is full of reading and I love it you know and yeah yeah so yeah we gotta finish this so we can have Rob on the show. Ah yeah that's very interesting also because the cognition part and always critique you know people when I share things people are sometimes saying like it doesn't make any sense without the cognition and I was like I don't know you know and then there's a book and you know so so uh it's very very interesting time and kind of like how to see the world because I've seen the I've read the book the psycholog ecological psychology you know and so how it explains very crazy book that talks about how light uh makes our muscle move you know it's kind of like a wild book just finish that pre I just finished that I just finished the last couple chapter the last chapter when it gets into evolution and stuff I just finished that like it was like light is moving my muscles okay you know then but I also I I I've read at least one and I have um uh I have uh wish to read more I've read the educational psychology for uh for uh athletes I think coaching athletes that was an IP book so I'm also trying to like read occasional IP books that uh educational psychology uh coaching athletes was recommended to me by Jorgen quite thick book quite heavy reading but I got through at it and then uh that was interesting to see how they explain things and what kind of methods they have because obviously we all heard that if you watched a good IP class it kind of looks like an eco class you know but it's just based differently they have the constructivism you know problem solving uh ideas and stuff they all have it but I guess it's where it comes from and what their assumptions are about why it happens are different. So I'm trying to not be I'm afraid to be in an eco bubble obviously and then I'm trying to also occasionally tip my toe to information processing and see how they do things and and uh the fun part is I don't think even the other side that usually against the eco is doing information processing also. So it's like I don't know what I'm arguing against actually because it's not like everybody should have a framework but if they're against the eco then it uh there's only two kind of world views you know and it's like if you're against the eco you're doing information processing but then they're asking me what is information processing.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

I was like oh shit you know so and they're not even I think doing by that standard what is information processing they're not even doing those classes correctly you know because there's like a par parametrizing parametrizing something that you know we expand and explore and stuff and the IP all has that whole has that so uh I think just in a jiu jitsu world what what this eco thing exposed that just I don't know if I say most people or whatever it is people don't have framework and I guess we had the SPG framework and now we changed it uh but people don't have frameworks and I don't know if it's a good I don't think it's like oh you should have and if you don't like you're a bad coach whatever but but uh it kind of shows that maybe have you thought about coaching and stuff you know why you're coaching this way what you're basing on and I it turns out that surprisingly a lot of people haven't even thought about it why they do things you know they just do because it's not like the crazy story it's always been done this way and my coach this this way and it sounds like crazy but that's the answer you know and I'm like cuts you know that uh you think that's the most important why you're coaching so sorry I think that's the most important thing you hit on is that when like because some some year or two ago uh a black belt once said to myself and and even and even Adam was like if I ask about ecological dynamics restraints on a production you tell me to read a book then you're not doing a good job of helping people sort of understand this but again I think that it I don't want to I don't want to take away from my own ability to be able to explain to someone but it's like yeah if you truly want to understand this framework this theory of learning ecological psychology then then you do need to do a little bit of you do need to put a little of your own work in but if I ask you why you do what you do and you say because it's always been done this way my coach taught me and his coach taught him then that is not a reason for doing anything you are just parroting someone else so do you you have to understand a little bit about this method about this theory if you truly want to be able to engage with your students in the best possible manner. Yeah you can create games you can understand tasks even a little bit but why are you creating games why are you doing tasks why are you trying to get people to why are you running your practice the way you're running your practice so if it's not this that's fine but like you said three and I thought it was perfect. Like you even know why you do what you do.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

And Scotty you you said something a couple seconds ago that that I want to push back on just a touch or maybe three but uh I have gotten to the point now actually where I feel like if if you if if you try and combine these two ideas right a a traditional and an eco or an IP and an eco you end up everything ends up in service of the information the drilling. So what like I thought SBG was really what we were doing was really on the almost an ecological approach. But when I sat down to think about it I realized that if you are starting with information from the coach then everything you build on that is in service of that information. So because Scotty talks about failure and trial and error if I teach you to do an arm bar the right way and we do repetitions of the arm bar the right way, all of our drilling will be created To make sure that the students get to do the arm bar the right way. Because we if we fail right at that step, then why did we spend all that time doing the arm bar the right way? And so I almost think if you start in the wrong direction, you can't, you will get except for live sparring where the coach is sort of not involved, everything else will be faulty. And and I I so I do think part of what makes an ecological approach is the directionality.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Makes sense. Yeah. It's just like what you know, even we talked about you know, alieness, aliveness, what it means, energy timing motion, but but uh now we know that even the isolation stage is not you know it's not fully alive.

SPEAKER_03 44:45

So and right, and so fully alive means dead.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

Yeah, but almost alive. I didn't have that uh like a connection in some point that it was aliveness, and uh even eco eco people have talked about it, that they use the word aliveness, and I know George Peacock has done some breakdowns of what what SVG aliveness means, and uh but it it's it turns out you know there was still some way, some little way to go, you know, and it was almost alive or something. But that progressive resistance, yeah, it was uh it was tricky in that sense. It it made it look like it was alive, obviously, but it wasn't completely when when we have our new definition of what is alive, you know, then that sense in ecologic dynamics and then and and and all the tasks and stuff. And so that was a big change, actually. That uh obviously the idea, and I always I always have said that that I think uh SBG overall, I think really missed a big opportunity uh to change and to to do because they were so close. And I I don't know, I feel bad or sad or whatever, but I truly feel like it they missed the opportunity because maybe their science wasn't there early days and everything, and uh I don't know, Matt was in uh some kind of path. And it was, you know, I think at the moment it was there was a chance to, you know, kind of redirect and understand the science more and adapt and make it better and and uh hook the idea to some some scientific basis and stuff. And you know, that was a I think it was a big opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

And uh, I don't I don't believe that anymore. I thought that, right? I thought that we could that what we were doing was creating a an evolution of the eye method. But what I realized was you can't get where we are from there. Because you have to throw out the information given by the coach. You have to throw out that being important. If if that's important, if there are things that everyone you believe everyone has to need, there has to know that there are better ways to do things, that that we teach our white belts how to do something because Hickson did it this way, and then everyone starts at a higher level. If you believe that, you can't get where we are right now.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

I I understand you completely. Yeah, so that's what I mean. I I think these days, I think it's even more towards that correct information. I think when um so I guess when we left, I think 2018 or something, I think it maybe I would say it wasn't that much that strong information because now it's you know all the Higgs and stuff and everything. So and they have chosen their their path, and so that's in a way, and some other reasons why we we we chose like to to be our own man, and uh, you know, and and then uh they were I think a little like uh romanticizing, they were so close, you know.

SPEAKER_03 47:20

And uh but that's the the dominant paradigm in BJJ, even today, is you know, information. I mean, so so they were we were definitely moving away from the dominant paradigm.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

And when you say information, you when you say information, is it uh is it more accurate to say instruction? Uh um because we accurate definitions of right.

SPEAKER_03 47:40

I'm fucking that I'm fucking that up because I I when I say information to us, then I mean environmental information, right? But I think a uh traditional coach, it's instructor-driven information that I'm I'm talking about. So I think SBG has just maybe come full circle back to a very traditional BJJ. Because what's the difference? Any gym we go to in America that does a traditional approach is coach-driven information, some type of drilling, and then live work. So the I method is really just a traditional approach with maybe a little bit more sophisticated drilling. But it's no different than every it's probably no different than any other BJJ gym we go into.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

I think just to circle back as well, when we're saying we're saying, right, we don't know what we're doing, uh maybe just let's do some fighty things. It's really more of an acknowledgement of how fucking complex it is, and there's gonna be a mystery to learning that I don't think we're ever gonna get away from. So I think it that that's probably talk about Adam, right? It's just you know uh acknowledging that there's uh that that it's mysterious. There's a there is a mystery about it. Now we're trying to demystify it and be better informed, but I don't think we'll fully demystify it.

SPEAKER_02 48:56

So then doesn't so then that works in the opposite direction, then in some cases, because you just said it's complex and and we don't really know, so what we're doing is just trying to shape environments to get people to learn and get more skillful. So doesn't that then work against us when you try and speak to coaches? When we're trying to because you know, I I have a son who does I have a son who's in youth athletics and moving into high school, and you know, I'm trying, I'm trying to help affect what will be the next four years of his life with certain coaches, and then it becomes, well, I still think this is really important, we gotta do this, we gotta do that, and I gotta know these things, and yada yada. And it's like if if we're unsure, and then they're so sure, how do how do we help people to be slightly less sure of what they're so sure of and and start to get maybe a little bit more unsure of what we're unsure of? You know, it works against us.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

It's it's a that's it frustrating. That's a craft.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

It's so frustrating.

SPEAKER_01 49:54

That's the challenge of the craft now.

SPEAKER_03 49:56

But you've seen me, Rory, you've seen me have success with some very high-level, very old school coaches, maybe not changing their mind, but saying, and then this is what when I talk to coaches, they acknowledge that there is this gap from technical instruction to performance. They they understand that there's a there's a black box between those two things. It's like the underpants gnomes. We steal underwear, question mark, profit. They understand that that there's a question mark there. So when I say to them, maybe you are creating a gap in the directionality. And if you went from the thing backwards, you would not have that gap. If nothing else, the coaches I speak to consider that. They say to me, they have to ponder that idea, they have to think about that idea. And then I see in in Rob's new book, he's talking about the four P's of knowing, and he's saying in that, hey, if you start with participatory, everything else is explained by it. Yeah, but I think it's the same.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

I I feel the hardest part, if they think they they think they know, then there's nothing to talk about, you know. So I but I that's what I meet out of resistance with that, that nobody's even questioning or why I'm questioning the thing, you know. So I'm like, I'm interested, and then I find again, people are they're not questioning, they're happy with how everything is, they don't mind the black box box, that's how things are, you know, this is how it's always been. And so I find if you don't have that question, I I'm happy that I I'm very happy that I had the question, and then I saw it, then I saw what you know, ecological dynamics could fix. And but I also feel like a lot of people don't have questions, so it's kind of hard to talk about things. Like, and so I think the first question should be like whatever you explained, even maybe works, and how do we make them question things with uh very short you know sentences or uh analogies that they would go, oh yeah, I noticed that. Interesting, you know, and then maybe they don't know there's an answer, and we're trying to provide, or you know, we and but yeah, so I think even you know, we talked about read a book, you know. So, and that's been like a joke, you know. Then they're throwing, yeah, if if that thing needs a book, then maybe it's too complicated for you to explain me. But then it's question is have you ever read any books about coaching? You you should read you know at least one book about even information processing coaching, so and the book thing, it's like hilarious to me that that the book is the you know threshold. Read a book, no, I mean I'm not interested, and then I'm not taking uh on eco because I have to read a book. And I understand what they're saying, it's like a threshold, and you should be like explain me with layman terms, and I was like, really? Like you want everything like this handed to you, and and spoon fed the coaching anyway.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

So spoon-fed information the same way they're spoon-feeding their so they want me to spoon feed the information to them about a process that is so much less about spoon-feeding information.

SPEAKER_03 52:42

You know what's fun if what's funny about you saying that, Rory, is that Rob in this new book talks about the the gap that he's had as an educator is applying an ecological approach to education. And he he doesn't necessarily even he has some examples, but he doesn't even necessarily know how to do that. And so someone who spoon feeds their athletes probably wants to be spoon-fed themselves.

SPEAKER_02 53:13

Well, and it's funny because having just spoken to an educator not long ago who also was a coach, and he was mentioning about trying some of this in a classroom, and he was having a hard time, and because you if if you spoon feed education to kids until they get to high school, and then you want all of a sudden kids to maybe think a little differently, you want to be able to teach a little differently. Well, it's really hard to undo all of that, and especially in a system that the the right answer is the most important. So they've never really been taught or taught how to think so much of education is this the right answer, and get to that right answer. So they get to right answers and don't know how they got there because they haven't really thought about how to how to think. Then how how do you affect that at the college level, at the master's level, at the PhD level? And and it just it's just this this unfortunate, and I wouldn't say it's a cycle, but it's just unfortunate, you know, causality of we can't you don't teach people how to think, so then all they want is to be spoon-fed, and then again with this method, this method is so less about being spoon-fed that that they want us to spoon feed that method. And it's like, no, like I've read 10 books, you've read a bunch of books, you've read all the books, but I'm sure more than I have, obviously, in white papers, and you're discussing these things. It takes more than just me saying, we shape the environment.

SPEAKER_03 54:22

Go. So then so Scotty and Preet, this question's for you. What do you do with a blue belt or purple belt that ends up in your gym? Not because they're looking for ecological approach, maybe they just move to the area and they come into your gym, and now all of a sudden they don't even recognize what you're doing. What do you how what do you do with them?

SPEAKER_00 54:41

I had a situation when back in when we used the SVG method, and then even that, because there was still some, I don't know, maybe there was still some like think yourself and do stuff. And and uh we had a purple boat actually, Brazilian, um, moved to Estonia, and uh he he felt not good in our classes because he had to think what he was doing, and then he actually joined uh different gym later for maybe there were some other influences also, maybe it was closer, whatever. But he told me like it was really, really difficult for him that he had to now think what he was doing, and because everything was like do this, do this, do this. So at the moment we haven't had anybody uh like that from outside, or uh, but you know, people travel from different gyms in Estonia, maybe to summer to Estonia, like to Tallinn, so to speak, from other jiu-jitsu gyms. So there is clearly that transformation phase when they they have to get used to things. Uh, but most likely they like it, you know. If they're really I sound very sure when I'm teaching and stuff, you know, most likely what I I I I maybe sound what I I know what I'm doing. And then they see the results, they see the people, and uh it's up to them a little bit to buy in also to the method, but it depends how long they stay. But also, like I said in SVG Times, I I know that there was a guy that purple that was like, uh they didn't like the training this way because he was all thinking and he was he liked the answer. So he I wasn't convincing enough, I guess. So whatever the environment wasn't supporting her, and he ended up leaving. So so it is a tricky question. It's like it's it's about the person that do you buy in and do you have a reasoning and do you see the results? And but uh I mostly I think when people join, they like it because it's alive, you know, they roll and and stuff. It's there there it might be some roughness there because the tasks and stuff constraint, you have to go and focus and you can't just go full sparring. So people end up liking it, but I don't think it's easy, so in that sense, and and uh I think we're pretty safe culture, so I'm kind of straightforward with my saying, so things keep stay in track, so to speak, most times, so people don't just injure people and end up creating uh you know havoc or something. So, but yeah, it is a like uh it's not so easy answer. It depends on a person.

SPEAKER_03 56:42

So, Pri, there was a point actually. I like Scotty, I'd like Scotty to talk about this. I know he has a lot of people coming in to visit and try.

SPEAKER_01 56:49

Well, yeah, it'll be a brief. So I think it's getting easier, right? And and I think I haven't had a lot of maybe maybe I don't have success saying this is why we train and this is the approach we use, and and there's science, blah blah blah. And I've put a lot of thought into this. That's not very effective. I think what happens when more advanced students come to a gym, they drop in, they move to the area, whatever. They come and they're doing the thing, right? And my students are but they're pretty good at doing the thing. So I think it's the their experience at the gym that sells it. They're like, well, everyone's pretty good at doing this the spice the spikey stuff. So whatever you're doing must be working. And then you know, the rest comes down to culture, and it's always uh buying, it's always fun, it's uh really open, open, um, open room. So suddenly it's got easier. I think perhaps when we just started this and it was almost exclusively brand new students, they're still not very good at doing the thing. But now when they come in, um I think the room is kind of telling them there's there's something here.

SPEAKER_00 57:43

Yeah, I I would agree with with that also.

SPEAKER_03 57:47

I think that Brazilian jiu-jitsu, we've had a harder time in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu with people coming from other places trying accepting what we're doing. Um we haven't had a tremendous amount of luck with other people's blue belts and purple belts staying. Um, and part of it, and part of what you just said, Scotty, where people are are good at the thing is a also a little bit of a curse because uh our we have white belts who have even in a year have more time doing the thing than most blue belts from other gyms. And so even in even in drills, even in constrained drills, they are just getting hammered a little bit. And so we've had some blue belts try our classes and even or come to an open mat or something, and they just they I don't I don't know what it is, but they don't they don't love the experience. Never know how to grapple, because they don't necessarily know how to grapple.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

Yeah, it's not it's not your fault, but they they I understand the feeling that they get exposed. So and you it's kind of hard to tell them beforehand, you know, it's a different level or whatever, but but yeah, so that that I've I haven't had problem people leaving. We had like a last not this year, but last year, March, we had some people leaving gym because uh one I think girl and uh one brown belt girl and second brown belt, yeah. So we had some people leaving because of the they didn't understand what they've learned for in a year because they were waiting for technique and stuff. So so uh we had some you know migration, so to speak. That but also I would say first uh about some classes I'm not very proud, but I did, you know, and last year April was some kind of thing that we I don't know why we went up the level, everybody's level got up. Maybe it was information was more available, maybe it was about time that something clicked, whatever. But last year, April was uh was a kind of big change for us. And and uh, but before that, yeah, we had some even uh the people that trained with us kind of left in some point, actually. That uh that they wanted some answers techniques and and all this, you know, figure it out complexity, a lot of options. They wanted answers, more more accurate answers. And I think it was also a good process, you know, not people don't like it. And then but what led to me also all the you know, people leaving and stuff, and I think a lot of the problems come because people don't know what learning is, you know. So if you read books, uh right now I'm reading the range, you know, it's not like secret, uh, what they say there, it's different books in it's in a different book. But basically, everybody thinks learning is right and now right this right time, you know, that you give me something that's learning. I got something, and then the everybody that says no learning is what actually is the it's struggle, it's like to make it sticky, you have to get it wrong, you have to, you know, struggle a bit, and you have to interleave, you know, the skills and stuff and try different things, and that's learning. And I think for an ordinary person to understand this, that that far effect, I think is very difficult. And so it is a culture thing that kind of has to support that because it's not like people might feel lost, and if you're not learning the correct thing and getting the good technique, you know, they might feel they're not learning and and uh developing some timing for something uh early on, I think it's very difficult. And then it's other things, you know, all the self-determination theory and everything that has to support to keep people around, so they're actually enjoying their activity and stuff. And if you're not used to this, I think it's quite difficult.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:05

Well, and I don't know who coined the term, Scotty might know, but we we talk about a lot, is that we actually have to teach people how to learn to learn. Right? And I I think once I think that's a big piece. If we immediately start trying to teach them, then they it won't necessarily match for everyone. They won't understand what we are doing and why. And you could extend that. We have to teach people how to learn, learn to learn how to move, because we're asking people to move right off the jump, and they may not know why. And so I think uh uh important for our beginner coaches, whoever's in taking people, etc., is they have to let people know that the first part of this is just learning how to learn, and then later everything can click. But don't don't get don't get overwhelmed by what we're doing. First, just learn how to learn in a different way.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

Right now, I'm listening to Josh Peacock, the book that a boxing coach from UK in Adam Adam Harry and boxing coach, he was saying that he's labeling things for a sake of then then realizing they're learning something. And so if they're doing the tag game, you know, oh, this was a good job, actually. No, and this was a hook, and so he's labeling things because otherwise they they go home, they have no clue what they just learned. But yeah, oh, he was a good straight, straight, you know, straight right or left. So he's he's also making he was a he's he was worrying that you know we know how everything works, they don't know. So even maybe in some games, you know. So you I've I've done this, I know that uh in the games that you go, oh, this was a nice armbar, you know, and even if they find something, so you need to notice people more, you need to show them that was good, that was actually the game is teaching, you know, you notice what they did, that was a good timing sweep, you know. So otherwise, maybe they don't notice things that so uh in certain stages, I think in the beginner stage, it's it's kind of necessary to point those things out. What actually happened? If do uh because otherwise, like did I win? Did I did good? You know, they don't know, you know. And uh so we were just a month ago or something. The the uh beginners were asking, did we do the game good? What's the you know definition of a good game? It's like, yeah, you did you fulfill your task? Yes, that was everything is good, but it's not enough for them in the beginning. You have to kind of sometimes say, Oh, that was a good pass. See that you did nicely, this, you know. So it's kind of like I think it's part of the coaching, that kind of uh motivation from the side, not like telling them exactly what to do, but good job and stuff. And so I've listened to a lot of those coach your brains out podcasts, and they talk about all kinds of different feedbacks. And uh, one of the things you can do with the concurrent feedback is that good job, you know, everything is fine, nice, nice this, nice that, you know, that you don't coach them what to do, but you can just acknowledge them in the beginning. So I guess more higher belts they want more accurate things that what actually happened. But so I think, yeah, learning, teaching them what learning actually is and what's important. I think it's kind of like you have to you have to assume they don't know and hear bits and here, here you have to kind of let them know what we're looking here and what is learning and what's valuable in this gym and how you see things, and so I think. And if people get good and pick it up, so you know you can point it out. See, this happened, that happened, and but it is like tricky because that's what I find with people that are visiting sometimes, or people who left it, they don't get it. They just uh we we had a record year of blue belt level went low. Usually it was like a recreational people two years, now it's like year, year, three months. We had a record unofficial purple belt year and a half, you know, and that was a crazy time. And then some people left because they didn't feel they're getting better. And we had uh crazy results of just people getting better. And I was like, oh shit, you know, I haven't done my job well because a lot of people didn't feel that, you know, they're getting better. So there has to be addressed somehow that, and uh, I didn't, you know, go around how you feel, what is this? So you understand why we are we're doing this. So that was like a not a wake-up call, but kind of like a feedback that we still have to gator to something that what we're doing here, and occasionally not like talk about jargon and stuff that I also enjoy, uh, but just maybe in a different way of saying things, what we're doing, and then people understand and they can look up things, and but it doesn't have to be like a you know science-heavy talk all the time. But but still, that's what I felt after that that migration happened. I was like, uh, kind of like I should have done a better job a little bit explaining what we're doing here.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:11

Well, I I think it's always difficult for uh if a group of people start at the same time and everyone is getting better, it's hard to ever feel like you're getting better. Yeah, that's right. And that's so that's one of the things we'll talk about at the Iron Man Sunday, is just everyone being on their own journey and and you know, not judging against other people, things like that. I think those are important things as a coach to always be uh talking about. A pet peeve of mine, I wish we had better words than win-losing game. Because I get the same thing. I two students stopped me. They were they they were like, well, if this happens, do I still win? And I was like, who gives a fuck if you win? Like that's not that's not we're doing this. There's no prize to win. Losing is great. Failure is amazing. Like, I stop look, but I don't have better words than winning and losing. I could say accomplish or don't accomplish, but that just sounds retarded. So I have to try and reframe. frame for people what I mean by winning and losing. It just means accomplishing or not. It's not a value judgment on you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:08

I'm using start game, end the game, actually, because I have the same problem. I don't like those words because loss is like very negative. But then sometimes I use um you know game ends here. Then you reset. That's it, you know. So it's just taking but I also I don't think we need to always protect people from the word loss and you know you're you're not in America. Yeah you know so because I think people understand that losing and everything we talk about it and then they get used to it. But yeah that loss uh people are growing up like Rory was saying like their whole life losing is bad and then now they end up in a gym as an adult now losing is fine you know so it still like triggers them I guess they don't nobody losing is losing is critical. Yes yes you know but but every book every learning book talks about it and then we're so much trying to avoid it so it's all goddamn backwards and and so that's the education part you know ecological thing that we're growing up we're not losing everything is perfect and I had a girl actually that made public statement in Facebook that that when he joined jujitsu that but it's very dramatic in the first time in his life she felt that she's free and nobody's judging and uh all the young you know the childhood was being perfect and now jujitsu lets me try things and I was like oh my god you know and then uh she was goofing around in Jiu Jitsu and totally fine and yeah go for it you know I was like yeah practice so people are you know that was an extreme example but it's it's not like rare that people are programmed not to lose you know and now Jim is like yeah explore and do and be creative and and even uh I I know some people think they're not creative you know and uh so that's like a different challenge uh uh completely like to kind of install like a self-belief that yes you can also find solutions you can also try you can explore how do I explore what do I do you know so that's a that's a side off the coaching also but I really enjoy that it's uh I'm actually talked about uh when people are talking about stuff you know and uh recently I'm thinking what's my job you know so it's jujitsu seems to be a very small part of what I do you know so it's more about you know environment and people and understanding them getting to know them you know understand how to approach individual people you know some you more some need more push some have to leave alone and uh how to make them come back that seems to be the very big part you know so I I I'm out you guys keep going this is I think you just hit in Scotty's wheelhouse right there about coaching so I am going to run I I look forward to hearing what you guys do after I'm gone. Great talk to you later brother so that's been like recently what I've been thinking like yeah what what's actually my job and I'm kind of I'm kind of embarrassed and also happy that I've been in that road and I haven't thought about it before but now I'm really trying to understand it and still not everything is perfect but I'm bit by bit understanding actually what what I have to do you know so and uh jujitsu is a small part and that seems to be no everybody wants to make a gym like a third place you know so it's uh you want people to hang out create a place for them to hang out you know not like demand hanging out and and all that psychological safety and what they talk about you know and like a lot of things that go into the self-determination theory so now it's uh you know it's a psychology stuff and uh now it's really really interesting that I have also some hard cases um in gym uh that I really really enjoy kind of trying to I don't know soul would be a bad word but that I enjoy that I can help and I don't mind and it's not like I wish you wouldn't be here I was like I'm happy they walked in they're very hard they coordinated and I'm happy they had like a courage to come and my job is to like enforce them they're okay it's okay to like you know trying to figure out how your body moves and feel clumsy and and uh and this is seems to be the first environment that that person is encouraged to you know just goof around and move you know and um so that seems to be very very big part of what I do and I think and providing that space for those people also I think is very valuable that and it's good for gym culture and stuff and everything. So yeah being a coach or whatever it's like I'm really trying starting to understand and also digging deep to what my job actually is.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:56

I think um so when I opened the gym five six years ago we were I was fully committed to this experiment right and that was pretty nerve wracking because I'm taking a bunch of brand new people and I figure we're gonna go for this right we're gonna make this for however I my interpretation was at the time we're gonna do the ecological approach. And we're talking a little earlier about kind of these some of these sacred cows in in in our sport in the community sport generally and I've noticed that shifted a little because when we started most of the pushback and the critiques were well we have to learn the fundamentals first. Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals. I don't really even know what that means and now you know I've got some do better than others but I've got a I've got a white belt here that routinely routinely goes on and dominates and smashes brown and black belts in in competition right so now it's kind of shifting the kind of pushback and the critiques kind of shifting oh well okay well maybe you can get in this far but it'll never really be elite okay now you've moved the fucking goalposts all right but and and maybe maybe they're right. So I think this lends to this this extremely reasonable um perspective now that yeah yeah the eco stuff is great and all the life stuff's great but if we just do the eco plus that's going to be even better. And some of my fighters fall in that trap too okay that that they're they think well if I just get shown this or shown that it'll be even better in what we're doing. Kind of missing the missing the point of how far and how quickly they've developed just through exploration and curiosity and trying to figure out so the the goalposts have have moved and that's the next obviously the next car I'm looking at select and that's going to take time. We talk about emergence but there's never uh when we talk about something being emergent there's no there's no definitive time on that we just know we we just have to have this conviction that if we keep doing the 5D things then the the solutions will get more and more efficient and effective over time.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:42

I think just people are yeah like they maybe hard to it's hard to admit that jujitsu is not that complex that it has to be taught it can be also emerged by interaction and stuff and people can figure it out you know literally when you have good constraints and good ideas and uh what you point to what what uh what uh source of information you're pointing and there there they have I I know the conversations like what about this what about this and it doesn't explain that yet and they're always moving it so but uh yeah Jiu Jitsu turns out that I'm self-taught mostly you know some kind of weird Russian school military basement military shooting range we started you know and stinky mats and and we kind of explored and figured out and obviously watched examples and but I would consider myself like mostly self-taught and uh and so people can do it and now even better. So so and it's uh it's a little bit like I even you feel like giving power back to people. So it's not about you you know and uh and people don't think they can tax you know like tackle complex things but no actually you can and uh your your you know your decision matters and you can figure it out and and I think it's just really like empowering people that they're not coming to like you know you have old answers but and um some people are maybe unconsciously afraid of that some people don't think it's possible because it's so complex there's so many de la riva sweeps how can they all emerge you know and uh maybe that's not the point because they're they're learning it backwards you know so and eco is a really really good like like I you know like a COVID thing was everybody is working home that was a good social experiment but it was forced on us you know so uh uh and uh how people behave and everything you know um a lot of yards got done a lot of terraces got fixed you know and a lot of marriages got broken also but uh during that time but also eco is right now is showing what learning can be and it's a very good like a nice experiment and uh I think it's really really empowering people that actually what we're capable of and and uh people are pushing back no you have to be taught and you know but I've seen my son like he's speaking he's running he's jumping he's figuring shit out never been taught things you know and very very complex things you know he's speaking and it's like nobody's taught him to speak and he's figuring stuff out you know and uh I'm trying to encourage and stuff but I see it live like like he they're doing it and then I I recently uh watched a video about I shared it also uh that there was a language school that teaches adults like babies and um they're teaching basically they don't speak language like I don't know a year and a half or two years whatever they're not allowed to speak they just watch watch interactions in that language in a in a class and they wait they can speak uh when the language starts to emerge and apparently it emerges and they can speak like natives then they don't learn how to speak you know that's different but they they they learn like kids and they this is for adults you mean and this is for adults yeah yeah I can I can send you this uh it's really interesting you know like obviously there's much to it uh I haven't studied uh I haven't gone deep but there was one language guy was speaking about it and uh there was just the point was how to make it you know because kids they learn whatever language you speak to them yeah they learn to speak like native if you learn a language you learn it differently there's intricacies they say like you don't think in that language you just speak you know so and uh I can send you the video it was very interesting that you make language emerge even in adults yeah and just by not speaking actually by just immersing yourself in context of speaking and see how they interact and words without to make sense and you wait until it emerges and then you speak and then you start more speaking like kids you know kids cannot speak also because they don't have the vocals and everything and that's why they can't just make complex you know sounds in the beginning. But it's just interesting that there's a language school that pushes it that far because obviously you can learn to speak quite easy you know some some sentences and be fine. But the point was it never it's never native speaking it's taught to you. And uh there was language actually I was like okay that's new never heard that before you know because I studied German eight years in school my mom is a German was a German language teacher. I've learned I I I learned by doing grammar basically and I don't speak it you know and uh because there's no practice it's like I just know how words look and stuff but speaking is something different you know as and the Russian language I had better success because there was context and I can speak and I've done seminars in Russia also and then that Russian language kind of came back to me by just if they forced my hand to speak in seminars in Russian. So because there they don't speak as well English so I was like oh shit and then I I've done I speak yeah like not fluid Russian but I can I can I can do it. But that was just interesting guys so emergent things you know then then then and with Jutsu also there's so much stories already the BJJ help you know the the podcast talked about one purple belt from US I don't know what submission Connecticut whatever it was a year and a half purple belt already doing things you know so those things I think will come norm in some point people are getting the they're doing their job better with ecologic dynamics you know gyms are flourishing so it is we have to just give it a time five 10 years whatever you know and then just it fixes itself just fighting them sometimes like Rob Gray says he's uh he's done with debates you know he's picked his side and he wants to go and then uh you know the science emerges and that does the talking you know because you see like Craig was doing the those silly podcast debates with some people that weren't really educated and then but now coaches are adapting it you know it's a it's a different thing it has to take their own life you know not like like Craig is pushing it that the debate is solving things. No just interestingly enough people were interested actually what Craig was doing you know and those people picked it up in silence did their job you know and now they're flourishing even more you know it wasn't pushed on them but you know it seems like enough people were curious you know so I'm really really happy about that and then it's just a wave of coaches coming up right now and then expressing it doing it you know coaching with it and in Europe also there's a movement towards that and we'll we'll see what happens with that and because it's still there you know sadly Mr. Souders uh is uh like a gold standard still you know and um and we're all kind of hiking behind that wagon wagon and uh I'm interested also to see what Cal Jones is doing obviously because you know those guys have a little bit beef uh but seems to be like a bit two schools are happening a little bit like what Sauders is doing and what Cal Jones and uh those guys are doing and uh what's the application of this and uh you know representation dualism is a scale it's interesting discussions but but uh seems to be also like I think a little bit two schools and so they're connected to Europe a bit so we'll we'll see what happens and and it's it's interesting to be also in that you know I don't know frontline or forefront in Europe to see different coaches doing camps already. But there's still like I would say inconsistencies I'm not putting myself in better style being like I'm the best whatever but it is a big like difference with CLA coaches you know and who can really like uh do the job I just watch every Source class I'm like oh my god this is so good you know and the way he speaks and stuff and uh it's really really and then then I watch other CLA classes and then it's like you know so it's still I I enjoy people doing work and they have to do it. I've done that and I'm more comfortable these days obviously uh I would still consider ways to go uh but right now yeah there's still like the the level is really like and then uh really different and we'll see when it stabilizes I just we need time and we'll see who sticks around and does the job and actually puts time in and so we'll see what happens in Europe.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:48

I I think in states it seems to be more active or something I don't know but in Europe it's it's growing I don't know if it's I don't know if it's as active in the states as I mean we we have around yeah we have a group of folks we talk to yeah where and striking and stuff more more so striking MMA than than straight jujitsu and out of out of the close to 30 people in this WhatsApp group uh there's like five Americans uh that you know that that are that are in this and I think I I think the the biggest hurdle that's gonna that that we have to get over is not necessarily that this is a better method and we need people to understand as we believe this theory of of learning is better for people. I find that in this country that coaches think that the students are joining their gym to get the hotness. They want to be taught the cool things and they want the lapels and they want the chokes and they want all this and I got to teach them so that I think coaching in this country won't won't progress more you know to to a higher level of CLA numbers wise because coaches in this country think that they must be coaching centric on the map. Someone join their academy to learn from them all the coolness all the moves going to write down in a notebook and have in their role dex as opposed to this method where is where it's not coach centric that we do less talking we do more time shaping environments for learning so that people can explore and be creative and learn how to do things on their own as opposed to this is this is how you do things we we want this is what we want you to do. You're gonna have to figure out a little bit of how to do it I'm gonna guide you and put some guardrails in place and I'm gonna make sure you don't drown in the deep end but you have to learn a little bit and I think so much coaching especially when you see all the IG with the ladders and the things and I'm I'm this person's gonna be the best athlete ever because of all this nonsense that I'm teaching them and we look at things like that and like what in the fuck are you doing? This is 90 minutes of nonsense you never did the thing right we're all about just do the thing and no one does the thing and I think the coaching people think that that's what coaching is that I'm gonna run you through all the drills and all the cones and all the ladders and all the things and you came to me and you're paying me this top dollar to tell you what to do. And until more coaches realize that they're just coming in and honestly they'll do whatever you tell them to do. That's why they've come to you because they don't know so they don't know that they need the hotness if at some point there's some hotness to teach them when they have a context for it, great you can give it to them. Ecological dynamics is the same side of coach doesn't say we can't show our students things it just means we're not gonna start hitting that point and do it like this. I'm gonna just say here's the game the drill whatever you want to call it go play a little bit just discover on your own how to do MMA how to do jujitsu and then you got a little sticking point here you keep getting the arm inside and you keep locking your legs together but you can't finish a triangle cool now we have a discussion to be had but if you have no context for a triangle why should I even show you it if you're a first aid white belt with no capacity that to me now seems so very silly. And I think coaches are very stuck on that that that's what the people are paying them to come in and do.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:00

That's the hurdle in my in my opinion. I also think when it's US it's you have those skill acquisition conferences you know certificates now and uh yes and uh so it seems like a lot of different you know different coaches I don't mean also martial arts but I'm just seeing like the movement and uh movement is there different coaches seems like there's interest and obviously country is big and stuff so in that sense but yeah it's definitely in Europe there's there was like I think a little bit burst uh something happened more coaches got abroad obviously those source seminars in Malaga Spain and those things they helped to uh to spread the word and uh but they I haven't seen there's uh oh and Alex Laura and Alex they're doing stuff uh but we'll see you know how Europe is organizing it you know some camps are happening but uh I'm not saying it's unorganized but it's uh it's still I think in early stages you know that it's uh we'll I'm interested to see what happens and and uh how how everything spreads and how different it will be you know and who's gonna be you know the like uh what's the leaders and stuff who's taking that you know because we me and Francesco we we did the you know EcoVers the world stuff couple of camps and now I think we felt that we don't have to do them anymore somebody else has taken over you know those Saudis camps kind of uh they had different schedules that kind of I think messed everything up it was really everybody was doing camps and it was really unorganized and now it seems maybe better that uh some some or some somebody's doing better camps than we did I think for San Cesco and we'll see how the community organizes and what will happen and and I know uh Kivan is coming to Europe you know these days also in Germany you know Saurus is traveling so we'll see we'll see I think this lends the last question Adam popped a question yet I want to get to um a couple of things we mentioned Lachlan earlier right and we're on it's unclear I know Lachlan's a very smart guy uh very good at what he does he seemed to dip his toes in the water then then go back out that could have been for you know commercial uh reasons whatever okay I don't see too many people uh reversing course once once they come in uh once they really understand what this is but um Adam's question was how is because you're a big Globetrotters guy uh how how is your uh pivot being received through globetrotters do you think you're affecting change are you now kind of the the out there guy how how talk a little bit about the Globetrotter experience and how that's been as you've kind of uh shifted your perspectives yeah I've always made noise I guess I came to the scene I said everybody's wrong and I it's okay to turn the back and then I lost some friends and and uh but now I've done 63 camps now there's been over you know 100 I'm second guy that's done camps so there's there's some perspective there um I think me and Francesco I think we are the from the European side I think we are doing our classes with CLA there's Dennis uh that also tries to do the job uh he's from Germany that uh tries to understand it and uh also last camp just in mid-June he was doing uh with CLA uh using this but it's still I think not popular let's say among amongst coaches uh people tend to like it you know still you know typical jokes around you know figure it out and stuff and and uh but uh but I know I've I've got feedback from uh black belts that weren't coaches in a camp and uh they said to me that those classes that I give it's really good challenge because they're not interested in techniques you know they come to camps and they're not they don't want to learn like X card or something you know they're they they're past that point. So those those eco stuff games and you know I did the arm bar stuff arm bar different change the legs and stuff is inspired by the ed Ingamel's uh and uh they they said like really good classes for higher belts let's say so I know like uh people are watching people are enjoying them but I would still still that's stigma it's still like you know I do this way and they do that way and if I watch classes they're like always thinking I'm judging them you know and uh so but I'm not I just want to I wanna pick up information what they're saying is important maybe I can gamify it later you know so I'm past that I'm right you're wrong you know I just want to see classes I want to see what you emphasize but it's uh like compared to how many coaches are actually coaching in club traders it's very few of us so to speak yeah it's it's uh still it's resistance and I think just the amount of work you have to do you know I think that's the that's the like a threshold that it's not so easy just to games but I've seen people try here and there but most it's still information processing based classes. And uh I don't have much discussions with different coaches that they come to me like okay I want to understand this or don't understand this. This Heidelberg camp that comes in August now in the beginning of August I actually put like a workshop also I have two classes and I also teach a workshop uh how do we learn and how do you want to get better at jujitsu so that's like an hour hour and a half class that we talk about you know a little bit so I I kind of poke who's there who wanna who wants to know more. So but yeah um we're still very few of us uh we don't talk even people know I'm very into that and I read and stuff but I don't have much discussions with people. And yeah sorry ah he's leaving so uh in a way it's kind of sad and um but in a way it's just part of the process. I think just like we have to give it a time. But the change is happening people are noticing some people are using the language a bit more you know even if they do in IP classes. So it is a strange thing. For me it would be like I would be all over myself you know like I want to know more you know and uh taking the classes and stuff. But sadly yeah so I'm just going around here but I'm trying to think something that I've noticed but it's still very very few and I think my classes haven't been maybe last midsummer camp in June the biggest ones you know and um so there's I don't know I don't think there's stigma uh and you know I I don't teach anything whatever but it's still uh some people enjoy it on feedback even for beginners uh this midsummer camp also that they learned so much by just doing the thing and me letting them do the thing. There was a couple of Girl beginner girls, and I was like really good. Thank you for feedback. And I was really happy they came to thank me like later after a class. So that was really nice. So I think I just want to push it slowly, you know, be part of the change. Maybe I was earlier a little bit more aggressive, like I usually am. Yeah, I discovered something, you know, I've read and I know. And maybe, but these days I'm I'm just I don't say I don't care so much, but I'm more confident, you know, what I do, and that maybe that shows. So I'm trying to push it. Uh just don't emphasize and don't say eco in class and just do my good job. Uh talk normally, no, not be afraid of using some kind of words, but also I think certain by time certain maybe posturing has gone down, you know. Maybe I taught something I had to prove or something, you know. And um, so I still think the change is happening, but it's uh quite slow. And the fun part is that uh Christian Grogart actually, uh his former SPG, he got kicked out by Matt uh before I got, you know, I moved or some other people got kicked out. But uh Grubert was the one that actually brought Matt to Europe. He was Crogvert had a Denmark very uh very very popular gym, 700 people or whatever. And so he was really, really good uh big proponent of SPG, and then now we're working with Crogvert and he's my good friend. And uh he's teaching like um he himself that's really fun because usually if the you know camp leader is teaching this way and I'm doing this, it seems like I'm going against something. But Crowert intuitively is doing very, very eco-adjacent classes, and he doesn't want to read because he just hates that, and uh, he just laughs how much I read, and he's like doing it kind of we call it like a um butt feeling in Estonian language. You you know, you know, like you're riding with a car and your butt feels the bumps and what's happening, you know, like a butt feeling. We have like that kind of saying in Estonia. So some classes are really, really good. Some are in up in YouTube, the arm bar, auto arm bar or something, and he was doing quite good class. And uh some classes are more like he talks more, but it's still like a like a playful. So he's very, very into that style of actually teaching. And he's done uh um, let's say with youth, is uh when he was teaching in Denmark, they basically didn't do any techniques, they were just doing scramblings, don't let your butt put on a mat, and his youth was overscrambling everybody in competitions. So he's been there, but he doesn't have he doesn't read books, he doesn't understand what it is, but his gut feeling is pretty good, you know, about it in that sense. So that kind of also helps. So I'm not like a lone wolf and black sheep like always I am. And uh so but also with Crogart, it's not like uh, you know, something negative, but we don't talk about it. And uh so it's a slow burn. And I think it cragwart with his character, charisma, whatever, also helps to spread that kind of gamifying things. And uh I'm you know, I'm more serious about it or with my nature and everything else. So Crogart seems to be very charismatic and very open, and you know, people uh people consider him very approachable and stuff. So he's doing actually pretty pretty good work for you know ecological dynamics, even if he's not fully in that. So so but yeah, so I would say eco-adjacent or something, you know, like would be right to say. So it's still happening, and it's a pretty good in pretty good platform to actually spread uh this this those ideas, you know. I've done 60.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:00

That's what I was gonna say because I again I don't know a great deal about globetrawers, but for me, they were always kind of the out there, the progressives, you know, they're like pushing back against tradition and the orthodoxy. So I think if there's any community that would would seem open and receptive to this, it would be the globe trollers.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:17

Coaches are coaches, they're coming from their traditional background. I think the community is from you know, in progressive, the belt checker, you know, giving yourself a certificate and uh YouTube is not monetized. Uh it's like very, very uh against the grain, doing everything opposite that you know big corporations would do and building a community without uh hierarchies and everything else, you know, he's he's for that. And and uh, like I said, the coaching method comes natural for him. And but I think the coaches from different communities they enjoy it, but they're still bringing their tradition, you know, traditional view of coaching. And um I don't think it um I don't think it's not like bad thing, they're not open for influence, but maybe they know what they're doing, they believe in that, and uh, you know, it's not like me, they're watching my classes, oh shit, this is beautiful, you know. So I don't think it it spreads like that. I think the question has to come somewhere else, and some other life-changing experience has to nudge them a little bit in that direction, not my class. But I'm more influencing, you know, students, uh, how they train, and and I'm not trying to show them that this is a different way, and usually they enjoy it, you know. It's a lot of fun. Uh, if the constraints and everything is good, it's it's a lot of fun classes, and then they just, you know, they they see the different view. And I not like that I want to install doubt in them that they will start to doubt their coaches and stuff and their rebel. Just like, you know, this is also possible. How did you felt, you know? And then uh usually feedback is good, and I hope they go to their either cities, do their gyms. They're a bit curious, they've seen it, you know, and usually when you've seen it, you cannot anymore unsee it. So it's slowly it spreads, you know, and we'll see who picks it up. And and uh, but yeah, that's that's I don't think it's a deliberate vehicle for ecologic dynamics, but because I'm there also, it happens anyway. So I think we'll we'll see. I would give it again five whatever years, and we'll see where we are. So maybe they're all four worlds that's a little bit come up, and and uh club tour that just happens anyway, come up also because those coaches are also more aware what happens in the world about the eco, and then they're bringing it to the club tours more. So who knows which way it happens.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:08

Yeah, and it's really as a you you'll you'll have many students the same, I imagine. Once they're once they're truly bought in, it's a it's a beautiful thing. Like from our culture, um like most of my team now are really bought in, and there's uh and that takes time because there has to be a deep, deep trust that's developed within the room. They can really be aggressive and intense with each other, but ultimately, you know, take care of each other, look after each other, and it's and uh I've been speaking about this for the longest time now. When I go and watch my team, I don't have a great deal to say. I I sit back and just enjoy it for the most part.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:41

Yeah, so I think now we had some doubts, and people, like I said, but I think these days our coaching level has gone up. And uh just recently, a couple of days ago, again, people were like, those were two very good classes, and I get those comments more. And uh so obviously there's I'm not proud of some classes I did year ago, maybe so much, but so it's about proud of some classes I did last week.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:04

So there's all there's always a bit of that, you know. I'm still trying to find the final form, whatever that is.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:10

Yeah, I think it's also something to it that coach is vulnerable, you know, that if majority is good or some hiccups, then uh, you know, why not? But I think it is like the certain average level has to be there that the people feel it. And if you do it like really, I don't know, beginning eco, whatever that means. So it could be very messy and the constraints are weird and people don't get it. And and also if the culture is not you know built for that, everybody goes hard, they don't explore. And so it is it takes a bit of time. So it's really like Sauders, you know, when when he says those things that you have to really uh spend two years fucking up classes and then maybe you get it, you know. It really is that it just literally took us like like two years though to mess up classes, and and I don't know how to recommend it to somebody that you really just go in, it's a mess, people doubt you, but in the end, I'm happy. I'm happy I did it. But also I lost some people during that time. And um, it's hard to recommend it, but I'm happy I did it. Uh maybe these days it's easier because information is more available, how to do it, and all the DVDs and all the school platforms and stuff. Uh, but I think just like you know, teaching, doing it. You still have to do it, you have to mess it up. And I think that's also the hurdle with this, you know, it's not like you know, take a YouTube technique and do it. And I don't think it comes easy. I'm super happy I did it. I I'm I was able to, you know, change and and develop. And I'm happy I was not dead inside, you know. That's also shows something that I'm still there's some neuroplasticity left in me, you know. Uh, but I also see people are afraid, you know, like really two years of messing up classes, countless podcasts, but I've listened, you know, the DVDs, Source, and everything else. You have to jump in. And then I and I wish, and also I wish that all the school platforms are now the grappling you or whatever the Sourist is doing and whatever the community is building. I wish that I I hope that the threshold gets lower, you know, so it's not like two hours, two years messing up classes. And so that seems to be why why people are not jumping in yet, like majority and the early adopters and stuff, they jumped in and they did the job. So it's always early adopters, and then the most, you know, the curbies.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:07

Actually, they when we were down in uh with Adam, Adam was presenting for uh alert, it was like a law enforcement in Texas, and there was a presentation I really liked it, and he was shown a graph, and it was like you have your early pioneers, your early adopters, and then they call it the chasm. There's this long period of chasm of uh this chasm of just people watching from the sides, and then it'll hit this critical point, and boom, there's a there's a paradigm shift. And um, it may it may happen, it may not happen, it may happen sooner than later, but this seems to be a phenomenon in any industry or domain, this kind of paradigm shift. And it takes time, and we're in that chasm right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:42

Yeah, clearly, it's like I understand it. Like people are waiting for a proof, more certain proof. They have the what about this, you know, and what about that, and uh you know, also that the dynamics um that's coach-centered, athlete-centered. So I I don't blame people that uh some maybe in some areas they're the adapters, and this area they're the watchers, you know. So so it is what it is. It's it has happened before, and it's just part of the process, and we can't hate it. We can't go aggressive, you know. Oh, you're stupid, whatever. We have to know this is how it happens, this is how progress happens, and we just have to do our job well in that sense. I think if we're really like aggressive towards those people who don't believe, then we push them away, also, you know, that early also eco-guys, and people are more aggressive. Yeah, that's also that's also part of the problem, part of the progress that you're learning something, you're passionate, and then you talk about it, and everybody feels like you're pushing them away and you're right and they're wrong, and you're not even looking for conflict, but it sounds like that. And uh then you get settled, then you understand who you are with it within this, and then you understand what how people see it, then what their doubts are, and then just it's it settles, and then you're just doing your job, and your results, results are speaking for themselves. And we have weird results that, like I said, cannot explain by just people being always talented. It's like gym is full of talented people. That's also not happening, you know. And uh, and what is happening we cannot explain, and we just go, well, see, this is probably the method a little bit helps, you know. Maybe in uh maybe I'm so good person that I draw in talent, or maybe it's something to do with the way we teach. And so it just needs time. And uh then people, I don't think the doubt is fully erased, like always, but I think the the the the the the I don't know, common people will also jump. And uh we'll see how it changes also, dynamics of the gyms, also, you know, because a lot of gyms I know uh I watch some Brazilian, like some like YouTube channels, they talk about building business, you know, building gym business. And uh one guy even said, good luck with letting people row on a first day. That's a business killer, you know. So they're kind of keeping them away like crazies, I guess, six months or something, you know, techniques, everything is super safe. They don't let them touch each other basically, and uh they're paying money, and that's a business, you know. But are we doing that? You know, that I don't know if ecological dynamics reaches those people, you know. And I'm not against doing business like that, but also, you know, maybe people are there, they don't know what's out there, you know, because they're in that bubble. So, so who knows? That because I think that's it will be somewhat, I don't know, I I would guess somewhat disruptive to the gym business. The the if you really adopt that, I think it it changes because uh it's not gonna be like you know, striping every 20 class, or you know, how do we get belts and there's no techniques anymore, and and uh there's no like the progression in that sense, like show me a five mountscapes, you know. So I think it could be disruptive. So we'll see how far it goes. Maybe just people have so much structure and uh like the business and to be secure so they don't adapt it, maybe it's because for a business, like Kivan said in some podcasts, I think it's dangerous to make people spar. You know, it's just like better to make them choreograph techniques and pay money, and Jim Jim is booming, you know. So we'll we'll see what happens. It's because probably some change will happen, but we'll see how far it gets.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:37

Yeah. Well, I we I we as we round off here, um, I want to just piggyback on something Adam said, and I I very much appreciate this in you, right? You're extremely supportive, you're always sharing others' work. Um, because you had a brand. You were a brand, right? I guess whether you want to label that or it sounds grandiose, you you had a brand, and for for you to be so curious and so open and to to really want to risk your brand in many ways, because you kind of are, right? Um, and you're kind of there's a there's there's a tacit acknowledgement there that what you were doing before might have not been optimal, and what your brand was built on before might not be optimal. So I have nothing but uh praise for that. It was easier for me because I didn't have a brand. I was a nobody, I'm still still relative nobody. Um, but it was easier for me because I didn't have this, I hadn't built up this expectation or this brand or this persona. So um thank you for always sharing our um podcast and giving us shout-outs and stuff. And um, I'm glad I'm glad we because we we spoke about getting you on the podcast a few years ago, and I'm I'm glad to finally got around to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:38

Yeah, it's it's not even the sharing part, it's not even work. I really enjoy it. I wake up, I see what's going on in my feed. I'm like, this is cool, this is good. I I I have to show everybody, you know. So I don't even even consider it work. It's just like I enjoy people doing good shit, and it helped if it helps you guys or the spread and podcast, and you know, I it's not even work for me. I love it, do it. I wake up and just it's not like oh shit, the day again. I have to share max 10 reels. No, let's go, you know. So I'm really happy to support.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:04

When are you next in the States?

SPEAKER_00 1:41:07

Uh, it seems to be uh in January before uh Club Trotter Caribbean camp. I think I'm in Vermont. Um, I've been there once before, but Vermont seems to be uh uh I can show you, I can send you like who actually invited me if you're interested. I don't remember off the top of my head. Uh, and uh, it's a weekend yeah before the club tour Caribbean camp. So I jump in and then I go down and then I go home from there. So it kind of makes sense to kill the two birds with one stone in that sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:32

Where is the Caribbean camp? Where is the Caribbean camp?

SPEAKER_00 1:41:35

Uh St. Bart's, the most luxurious island in the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:39

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:39

So that's not yeah. So Crowart, Christian Crowart lived there for seven, eight years. He got actually citizenship there, also, and that was a Tex haven. Uh, and now he moved back to Denmark because of different reasons. Kids go to school and stuff, because St. Bart doesn't have a high school, it's only uh Mr. Basic School, preliminary school. What's the school? Elementary school. So they don't have a high school there, and so it's a famous island. And he lived there and then still have connection. There's jujitsu, and then it's one of the most affordable ways to visit that island is to do a clock to a camp because we live in uh nice houses, but there's still like uh, you know, two bungalow, uh like uh two bunk beds, yeah, two bunk beds in a room. There's private rooms also. And uh so for me as a coach, it's um that I think is very affordable because I only pay for a flight. So because camp is free for coaches, you know. So for me, I just have to get there and then uh I enjoy a week in Caribbean, you know. So I've been there already like 16 times, I think. So it seems like a home. And uh so I there's I I think I'm doing it once or twice a year. So that's the next one uh in January. And I yeah, one guy from Vermont contacted me, wanted turtle. The the poster said the year of the turtle or something, so we're doing like two, uh a full weekend. Yeah, and so I jumped there and then I go down to Sandbart.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:53

You know, I might look into that. I might look into that. Maybe I'll come down and see you. Yeah, yeah. It's not easy, it's not hard to convince me to go somewhere warm in uh in January.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:01

Yeah, because I've been close to you also. I've been in uh white lotus, you know. That's right, yeah. Yeah, so I didn't know they were that close. But yeah, so Vermont and Sunbart, and yeah, like uh you you're thinking like coming to downdo like a Sandbarts camp, or what do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:43:14

Yeah, yeah. Come down, come down to the camp.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:16

Yeah, so I think I thought as a participant, you can join uh as a coach, I guess. Yeah, day uh are you a brown belt or black belt?

SPEAKER_01 1:43:23

I'm a I'm uh I'm a terrible brown belt. You know what what happened was um I've been a brown belt for about eight, nine years now. I don't wear the game, but my my my partner in business, uh Ben, he's uh got his black belt a couple of years ago, and it's really important that I I wait because uh I I've taken up a lot of oxygen in the room, right? It's been very much my ideas and stuff in the gym. Um but he's he's the head grappling coach, very, very good grappler. And I I want it'll mean uh it'll only mean something to me if if I get my black belt from him. So whenever that is, I'm in no rush.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:53

Yeah, because that's what I mean. Uh Grogvert allows only black belts to coach in a camp. But as a participant, uh I can send you a link for that. I think there's some places left, and uh, I really highly recommend it. You know, if you have the finances and time to do it, really awesome. Like uh, you know, colors are like from Samsung screen, you know, it's like it's goddamn Caribbean beat any peach is like a top-level pitch, like there's no shitty beaches, everything is like uh from the movies, and it's a crazy place. Uh, and I can send you like the the Vermont seminar also and uh the the um the information of the cloud trollers. So check it out and you know selling at the globe trollers.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:26

I know I'd like to come down as a student. Um uh selling at the globe. Yeah, Vermont in January isn't isn't quite as appealing as St. Barts.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:34

Yes, I agree, I agree. Yes, yes. But I will send you the Sunparts info. So so you can check it out and we'll we'll see. I think I saw some, I don't know, like a handful of tickets left. It's usually a small camp, like a 40, 45 people, maybe. So it's not the biggest one. There's usually the midsummer one in Finland, there was like a 200, 250. So, but uh, some parts is because of the living conditions that have on people they can put there. I think it that that that caps it kind of.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:56

Cool, cool. I will send you.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:58

Well, great pre. Um again, uh appreciate you coming on. Um being a great ally, growing a great ally ally this last this last while. And uh I wish you all the best. Um, give this man a follow. Probably any of the listeners. We don't have that many. We we just we just throw this up. Don't promote it, don't do anything. So you're you're kind of our promotion team for this. This you're our whole promotion team. So we appreciate the shout-outs.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:19

Happy to do it, yeah. All good. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:21

All right, my man. Take care, uh, all the best, and keep up a good fight.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:24

Yeah, I will.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:25

Thank you, Mommy. Bye.